Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
How they keep predicting the end and it never coming probably isn't helping their image.
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Just 43% of Americans Identify as Protestant
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
Because what is hemorrhaging is not true Christianity. Don't you remember that Jesus foretold that "weeds" would be sown among the "wheat" by the devil.....and that both would grow together until the harvest? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)
What you see 'dying' is the weeds, not the 'wheat'...the weeds have never had God's backing...but the wheat are thriving and enjoying God's blessing. Jesus said that they are "few" compared to the number who claim him as their "Lord". (Matthew 7:13-14) "Many" will say that they are Christ's disciples when the judgment time arrives, but Jesus' rejection will stun them. (Matthew 7:21-23)
He doesn't have to, because all humans are being caught in the act of being themselves.
You see, why a person does something is more important to God than blind or forced obedience. God wants our love and loyalty from our hearts because of who he is, and what he has created for us here....not just because he is more powerful than we are and can wield a big stick. Our choice to serve God has to come from that place in our hearts where satan cannot reach....not with slander or lies or materialism or selfishness or greed. He has been trying from the beginning to slander God and paint him in the worst possible light, and many will just believe his propaganda on face value proving that they really have no interest in getting to know him on a deeper level. They don't even care if they are wrong about him. It suits them to reject all mention of him. They don't want to be bothered with his rules.
And yet those who profess to be "Christians" continue to demonstrate by their actions that they don't really care either, most are "Christians" in name only. They just rock up to church, confess Jesus as their Savior, go through a few rituals, and all will be well.....sorry, but that is not what Christianity is all about. The "wheat" were never going to be in the majority...they are the ones "doing the will of the Father", not the church. They are different to the weeds and hated because of it. (John 15:18-21) But nothing will silence them.
The world will witness a miracle...but not in the way that most people expect.
Jesus used the days of Noah as a model or example of what we can expect the last days of this world to be like.
Think back and ask yourself if the people of Noah's day expected what he had been telling them for decades?
They ridiculed him and taunted him for building an enormous structure out in the middle of a cleared field. It was nowhere near water but it wasn't a boat. It had no bow or stern because it was designed to float, not navigate. It was just a huge box with three tiers and enough supplies for all that God placed inside that ark.
Where did all the water come from to flood the world? The Bible says it came from above and below the earth, rising at a rapid rate so as to take all those outside the ark by surprise. Jesus said it would happen just the same way....just not by water this time.....again with no one taking notice of the ones trying to warn them of God's coming destruction. (Matthew 24:37-39)
God has always left his instructions for anyone who bothered to read them. He sent his son to offer his life for those who really appreciate the sacrifice and want to show that appreciation to God by learning all they can about him, and then following through on what they learn with actions.
Your reaction here suggests to me that you care deeply about God and Christ and your fellow man...which were the primary requirements for all of Christ's disciples. (Matthew 22:35-40) So you are in a good position to start that journey of discovery before the end overtakes the world. (Matthew 24:14)
Because you are in anguish about God's ability to save those who will qualify for life in his new world, apparently you have not gained the knowledge that leads to strong and solid faith.....that is a confident and beautiful faith that God knows those who belong to him, and that not a single one will be missing who has shown God who they truly are, without any interference from him. No one will perish (there is no hell) who does not deserve to. But we have to know from the start that "few" are on the road to life.....by their own choices. (Matthew 7:13-14)
InChrist
Free4ever
I am not surprised. I think a more accurate question is, Why should God intervene?
God has revealed Himself through creation, throughout history, through Jesus Christ who became flesh, and through His prophetic Word which shows that the falling away from the faith is a MAJOR indication of the end of the church age/ the age of grace, the rise of the Antichrist and the coming judgement.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
InChrist
Free4ever
“Never coming”?
You sound very confident concerning your knowledge of the future. “They” aren’t actually predicting anything, just reiterating what God had revealed...
...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world thatthen existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day isas a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:3-9
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I used to believe as you do. It's a long established tradition of Christians, as they have been doing this since their religion first began.
I can't help but be reminded of another recent thread asking why God doesn't intervene to stop COVID-19.
In contrast to that, we have your OP. Out of all the problems facing the world and all the human suffering that exists, the big problem you want God to solve is that your religion isn't as popular as you'd like.
Interesting.
My chief concern with this 'news' is not the possibly diminishing influence of Evangelical Christians on America. Almost all of that influence has been well weaponized by Evangelical leaders in such ways as to existentially threaten America's representational government, hence just about everything of value to any of its citizens.
What I'm genuinely a bit concerned about -- even when there's so much to be concerned about today -- is how the cultural influence of America's other oldest Protestant traditions will pan out? Some of those traditions were key and instrumental in shaping American culture to the needs of sustaining a representative democracy. We are so going to need their influence writ large if we are to somehow rebound from the politics and cultural changes of the past 40 or more years.
As for the Catholics, to me, that tradition is in most ways potentially the best at adapting to the current needs of a deeply wounded representational democracy -- or at any cultural changes. It's mostly a question of 'who is leading them at all levels?"
If I were to see the hand of a benevolent God in all of this, I would expect that to be most visible in how the Evangelicals might be becoming irrelevant to America both as a people and as a nation. Kind of like a cancer going away.
Good people. My doctor is about the most actively compassionate man I've know. Spends two months each year providing free medical services in the outbacks of Hondurans. Very authentically motivated by his understanding of Jesus Christ.
Their leaders -- the most powerful ones -- have worked evil upon the American nation and all of its people, possibly even themselves. C.S. Lewis had it right, evil is best imaged as a distinct, but common manifestation of universal human nature that comes across as a mix of insanity and stupidity.
If I were to see a Satan at work in America these past 40-50 years, his most useful tools have been named Dobson, Falwell, Robinson, and other like people.
What I'm genuinely a bit concerned about -- even when there's so much to be concerned about today -- is how the cultural influence of America's other oldest Protestant traditions will pan out? Some of those traditions were key and instrumental in shaping American culture to the needs of sustaining a representative democracy. We are so going to need their influence writ large if we are to somehow rebound from the politics and cultural changes of the past 40 or more years.
As for the Catholics, to me, that tradition is in most ways potentially the best at adapting to the current needs of a deeply wounded representational democracy -- or at any cultural changes. It's mostly a question of 'who is leading them at all levels?"
If I were to see the hand of a benevolent God in all of this, I would expect that to be most visible in how the Evangelicals might be becoming irrelevant to America both as a people and as a nation. Kind of like a cancer going away.
Good people. My doctor is about the most actively compassionate man I've know. Spends two months each year providing free medical services in the outbacks of Hondurans. Very authentically motivated by his understanding of Jesus Christ.
Their leaders -- the most powerful ones -- have worked evil upon the American nation and all of its people, possibly even themselves. C.S. Lewis had it right, evil is best imaged as a distinct, but common manifestation of universal human nature that comes across as a mix of insanity and stupidity.
If I were to see a Satan at work in America these past 40-50 years, his most useful tools have been named Dobson, Falwell, Robinson, and other like people.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Exactly. That's the beauty of it.I am inclined to agree on a purely logical basis, but that eternal happiness no longer comes by way of Christian beliefs.
50% use statistics right, while the other 75% use it incorrectly.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I'll just carry it one step further and then we'll leave it. We think we have free will but for the most part we don't. We live in a nation governed by a complex set of laws. Those laws take away much of our free will. When we choose to be a Christian free will is essentially taken away and replaced with an extremely complex and confusing set of do's and don't's given to us by the New Testament so the only place free will comes into play is being able to decide which religion you want to live under.
So would it involve true love? It's not an issue. When you've abdicated what little free will you have you're really no worse off. Take the eternal security of having the decision made for you, I say. At least you know someone is making the right decision for you.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
So Jesus gave up his life for a tiny fraction of mankind's salvation? Looks more to me like Jesus threw away his life for a very poor payback. What a miserable salvation God has foisted on the human race. Pretty pathetic and deficient.
True in a sense, but in most cases words like those are used by people who often have little or no understanding of how the same words might hint at one of humanity's best, most reliable methods of inquiry.
I wonder, Shaul, you're a teacher, and a dedicated one, according to you.
What would you tell a student of yours who asked you what would he or she need to see and identify as present in reality in order for him or her to turn their knowledge of a trend into a reliable way of predicting some future reality?
To refresh your or anyone's memory, that sort of thing is done everyday, and it is done mostly by simply observant and insightful people who are not scientists, scholars, or any other kind of trained specialists in doing it. It's kind of like, if you make it to around my age, let alone decades earlier -- when most people have it figured out by trial and error -- and you don't know how to turn some trend you observe into a good reason for expecting it to continue, then you've not been much interested in thinking about trends.
In my opinion, anyone who has not learned how to spot the reliability of a trend, has laid themselves wide open to propaganda, because that's one of the best tools anyone has available for an immediate take on whether something is mostly true, or is BS.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Jesus gave up His life for all of mankind.
You seem to forget all those in their graves that are also redeemed. "The wages sin pays is death" and all these deceased ones have paid sin's wages, their sins are covered and their resurrection assured by Jesus sacrifice. (John 5:28-29) That is billions of people....not a tiny fraction at all.
If you offer someone a gift and they throw it away, do you keep offering more gifts only to have them do the same thing? Or do you stop offering?
Statistically, there are about as many people who have died as those who who are alive today. So even if the majority of those living in this time of the end refuse to accept the message, like those in Noah's day (who were also warned of God's impending judgment but chose to ignore it) they have received a personally delivered message and have rejected it. There is no excuse that they can offer to God for their unbelief or their breaking of his laws.
According to scripture, only two categories of people are going to be lost at the judgment.
2 Thessalonians 1:6:10....
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."
We have the choice to be among those ones who will suffer everlasting destruction.....or to choose to obey the Christ and do the will of the Father. (Matthew 7:21-23)
God's will has to come to its completion and it will go ahead, with us or without us.
That seems a bit suspiciously off there. I mean, why didn't you include the decimal places if those were indeed real statistics? People who are good making up real statistics, always include a few decimals, you know.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
But it sounds like only a tiny fraction will take advantage of it, true?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
You'll be surprised to learn that
There are currently seven billion people alive today and the Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived. This means that we are nowhere near close to having more alive than dead. In fact, there are 15 dead people for every person living.Feb 4, 2012
The vast majority have died without Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was just about to add the following but you responded to my post before I had a chance.
Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought the one true God the honor of sacrificing himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. Notably, Jesus never said anything about an original sin committed by Adam and Eve as the reason for His sacrifice, or that you had to believe that He died for your sins in order to be covered.
Why would you think that you have to be a Christian to be "covered" by the cross sacrifice? Christians of course will tell you that but that is just Christian doctrine.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
That makes it even better. The vast majority of the dead have probably never heard of Jesus, or were ever acquainted with Israel's God.....their resurrection does not depend on it. Jesus died for all and the resurrected ones will be split into two categories.
The apostle Paul said of his fellow Jews...
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)
And according to Jesus, he said at John 5:28-29...Jesus said...
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
If both the righteous and the unrighteous are called from the same place, then the 'righteous' are granted life because they were faithful to their death. That would include all pre-Christian servants of God. The 'unrighteous' will face a period of judgment because the vast majority will have to be educated in Jehovah's ways and learn to be good citizens of his Kingdom. Since they died in ignorance, why would God penalize them for not knowing about him in their land, and being raised in a foreign religion? God gives them that opportunity.....why wouldn't he?
If there are 7 billion people alive today and the majority of them perish at the judgment, then that gives many billions of people a chance to be brought back to life on earth in the resurrection.
Since the estimated numbers of the dead involve going back in time some 50,000 years, we can safely assume that their stats might be a bit off. I believe that the numbers are more likely about equal.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
It's stuff like that is why people are leaving. And it's not just the fanciful and wild stories coming from it (like these mass-resurrections), but the fact Christians themselves cannot agree on much of anything. And today we know how oddly specific but not specific vague wording can be, we know the Bible does contain typos and translation errors, and it really just looks silly when Christians try to take this literally. Except they aren't. Jesus said he would return while all the apostles were alive. But they're all dead, and despite this broken promise Christians still pretend otherwise. And people are catching on and becoming wiser. Because today, with this being legally something we can freely do (here, anyways), we can question the "righteousness" of your god and determine, by the words of the Bible, he is more sadistic, twisted, and cruel than Hitler.