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Judeo/Christian/Atheism.

night912

Well-Known Member
Every single "thing" we know we come to know based on the interplay between opposites. We can see only because there is light and dark creating "difference" that (the difference) can be gauged precisely because they are different. We have male and female, light and dark, good and bad, right and wrong, material and immaterial, living and inert, etc. etc..
Nope, you're wrong. Want me to show why?

What is the opposite of "potato"? If you answer "no potato" then it also tear down your whole examples.

Male =/= female

Instead, it would be...

Male = not male

Existing and non-existing have to provide a similar, even fundamental, duality.

But if, as you say, existence simply is, then it would be something that doesn't require the very duality that every other thing requires. Which is to say that nothing has to be something even if it's nothing.

Which is where theology comes in since life and death present the same sort of conundrum: I can't be alive if I can't be dead, since otherwise being alive and being dead would be the same thing.

When someone says existing, and being alive, simply are, they are (the person saying that), unbeknownst to themselves, reverting to the status of the animals for whom the human distinctions between alive and dead, existing and not existing, are not genuine issues. They're not issue for animals or insects, so far as we know.

Theology is about the fact that mankind possesses a spirit that allows him to realize, if he uses the spirit as it should be used, that the world is theological more, and before, it's logical.
There's a flaw in your reasoning. You are equating "existing" and "living," which are not the same thing.

Which is where theology comes in since life and death present the same sort of conundrum: I can't be alive if I can't be dead, since otherwise being alive and being dead would be the same thing.
You've made a mistake though. By adding "can't be" to either one of them, you are changing the meaning. Same goes for "if." Therefore it is invalid.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
There are a number of smart, famous, atheists, who are now conceding that man's mind is doing things these days that refute the logic of evolution and natural selection. It's as though some non-material alien has been guiding evolution to the development of the human brain, where, just a few thousand years ago, it finally landed and established a beach-head (so to say).
If you mean that they saying that evolution and are wrong and could not have happened, then you have misunderstood what they were saying.

Let's test this. So you posted this below. What do you think he was talking about?

. . . Some of what I said should be self-evident. For instance, do you think animals worship God? And here's a "famous" atheist on the demise of natural selection:

Today, the 4-billion-year-old regime of natural selection is facing a completely different challenge. In laboratories throughout the world, scientists are engineering living beings. They break the laws of natural selection with impunity, unbridled even by an organism's original characteristics. Eduardo Kac, a Brazilian bio-artist, decided in 2000 to create a new work of art: a florescent green rabbit [he named Alba]. . . Alba stands at the dawn of a new cosmic era, in which life will be ruled by intelligent design [rather than natural selection].

Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens, p. 198-199.​
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I think it was Heidegger (perhaps in Being and Time) who suggested that the fact that anything does exist, rather than not, is the miraculous thing. Add to that the fact that sentient creatures can acknowledge, and speak of existence, and voila, in my opinion we have something parallel in significance and self-evidency as the existence of something we could easily label "God."

Defining that "God" is problematic since in some sense even knowledgeable theists concede that God is atheistic. The atheist's rejection of a God that "exists" (so to say) is part and parcel of a true understanding of God. Which is to say that a fuller understanding of the true theology of God must incorporate atheism as one of the legitimate branches of theology: Judeo/Christian/Atheism.

John

Actually, let's go with the original assumption that there's no reason to believe God exists unless a meaningful connection is made. The claims made by both Judaism and Christianity is that there was such a connection. In fact, most miracles seemed to happen when two conditions were met:
(1) Times were extremely tough
(2) People had a personal connection with God.

Elijah on the mountain, Moses after his exile, and so on.

When religion was just about rituals, God usually sent prophets to get people to stop these. Said prophets usually were killed for their troubles.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think it was Heidegger (perhaps in Being and Time) who suggested that the fact that anything does exist, rather than not, is the miraculous thing. Add to that the fact that sentient creatures can acknowledge, and speak of existence, and voila, in my opinion we have something parallel in significance and self-evidency as the existence of something we could easily label "God."

Defining that "God" is problematic since in some sense even knowledgeable theists concede that God is atheistic. The atheist's rejection of a God that "exists" (so to say) is part and parcel of a true understanding of God. Which is to say that a fuller understanding of the true theology of God must incorporate atheism as one of the legitimate branches of theology: Judeo/Christian/Atheism.



John
Great post

but

"Defining that "God" is problematic since in some sense even knowledgeable theists concede that God is atheistic."

WHAAAT?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Great post

but

"Defining that "God" is problematic since in some sense even knowledgeable theists concede that God is atheistic."

WHAAAT?

Knowledgeable theists would, many of them at least, concede that God transcends his creation. A thorough understanding of this divine-transcendence should be aware that saying God transcends everything that is not God is atheistic in that that God doesn't "exist" in his transcendence (since "existing" is circumscribed by existence) but that his transcendence not only is better, higher, than existing, but, in Heidegger's own philosophy, God's non-existence, his a-theistic transcendence, is the polarity necessary for beings to exist.

Jean-Luc Nancy is getting at the same thing when he implies that non-being is not a meaningless nothing as though thing-ness, existing, is everything. . . On the contrary, existing, being, is a meaningless nothing without non-being, God.

Buddhism deals with this concept far better than Western religion such that Heidegger, and many other theologian/philosopher/Christians have borrowed concepts from Eastern religion to speak of these truisms.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Actually, let's go with the original assumption that there's no reason to believe God exists unless a meaningful connection is made. The claims made by both Judaism and Christianity is that there was such a connection.

It's the nature of the connection that's in the cross-hairs here and in the bloody hair on the cross.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Nope, you're wrong. Want me to show why?

What is the opposite of "potato"? If you answer "no potato" then it also tear down your whole examples.

We discussed this about twenty years ago. The third paragraph answers the potato question:

Numerous conceptual errors give rise to the materialist’s oxymoronic/tautological employment of the term `natural selection’. First is the materialist’s inability to ground words in such a manner as to give them a non-tautological meaning. Since there is no inherent correlation between actual words as signifiers, and what they signify (a dog could just as easily be called a grog) the meaning of a word comes not from within the word itself (the placement of letters, or the sound a word makes when spoken), but rather, the meaning of a word is based on contrast and difference. The word dog is different than the word cat. Therefore we call this animal dog, and that animal cat. The words are dissimilar so we can use them to contrast two different things. But of course there is no such thing as a dog, since the term `dog’ represents merely a Platonic metaphor naming the most basic essence of an animal for which there are nearly infinite differences. If someone says they have just acquired a dog, there is no worry on the part of other dog owners that their dog has been stolen by the person stating they have just acquired a dog. It is understood that the person is using a Platonic metaphor when he speaks of acquiring a dog.

What is generally misunderstood is that all words are Platonic metaphors based wholly on `difference’ and contrast! No word has meaning inherent in it (inside its letters and sounds). All meaning is based on difference and contrast.

Within the contrast/difference necessary for words to possess meaning, we have two major types of difference. There are of course the secondary (or relative) differences, like cat and dog, whereby the difference is a category difference rather than an absolute binary contrast between two terms. But all such relative differences arise only as secondary effects of the ontological cornerstones of difference, which are based completely on a direct and absolute disparity between the two things being described by contrast/difference.[ii] Light is the antithesis (an absolute binary dissimilarity) of darkness. Being (as in `existing’) is an absolute contrast (an antithetical dissimilarity) to non-being! Good is the absolute antithesis of evil.

All shades of gray, all secondary or relative differences (like cat and dog) can arise only if . . . and after, binary contrasts between absolute opposites are pre-established - never prior to the establishment of these absolute binary oppositions. There’s a natural progression of metaphorical meaning whose absolute ontological base is the contrast between light and dark - being and non-being – alive and dead. In other words, every single word is a metaphor based on some other metaphor, until the chain of metaphor runs into a word that is no longer a metaphorical type, but instead a metaphor/term used to describe a primary thesis/antithesis generating ontological contrast!

If we say the word dog is a metaphor for a type of animal, and the word animal is a metaphor for a type of living thing . . . we eventually grind to a halt with the concept of the animal as a living thing as opposed to a non-living thing. The word `living’ is a primary metaphor in that it is the antithesis of non-living, and no matter how specific we want to get in attempting to break life down into reducible metaphors (like `a replicator of information’ or something like that) we still reach a point of irreducibility when we use the word life. Life is a primary metaphor in that rather than describing a type of some other thing . . . `life’ is a primary archetype establishing the binary dichotomy (ontological contrast), between itself, and its antithesis. This primary contrast is the entity that gives `being’ to things and words.

Unlike metaphors that describe relative differences, the word light is nothing but the antithesis of dark, and dark is nothing but the absolute absence (the antithesis) of light. Light isn’t a `kind’ of anything (or a metaphor of some other thing): it is pure antithesis! Darkness isn’t a `kind’ of anything (or a metaphor of some other thing): it is pure antithesis. Since light and dark are not `kinds’ of things . . . but rather pure antithetical contrast . . . light and dark are the beginning of Being, they are the essence of the finite, of creation . . . the absolute rupturing of the infinite![iii]

In the sense of Eastern mysticism, the rupturing of nothingness (infinity) occurs at the first differentiation between light and dark (yin and yang). This rupturing is the birth of the first Adam, the atom, the cosmos, the cosmic play, the babe in the manger, His archenemy Satan, you yourself . . . and the other! The word `light’ . . . ruptures the silence giving birth to the binary dichotomy that Fathers language and thus `Being/existing’! Language is born of the word `light’, and that light (even the word) first illuminates the void/darkness - generating antithesis (between light and dark) . . . and thus the atomic birth of grammar.

Linguistic light (the word or Word) gives `Being’ (existence) by slowly freezing into its antithesis (darkness) . . . and grammar is born! This virgin birth (one parent only – the infinite One – from whose rib the light is pulled) is the beginning of the possibility of the linguistic intercourse, which generates the conscious linguistic body. Light is frozen into matter (a slide (second law of thermodynamics) toward its antithesis: darkness), creating a physical body/sarcophagus which entombs the light, in its mortality (death), and from which the light might be re-born through regeneration. Physical life is housed in matter, and matter is (in a physics sense) frozen light. Thus, the ultimate archetype of contrast . . . the ultimate ontological dichotomy . . . is between light and dark. Light and dark are as far down the chain of metaphors as one is able to go.

God said: `Let there be Light!’ ‘I am the Light of the world!’ `No man cometh to the Father but by me (through me, because of me . . . the Light)’!

Tautological Oxymorons, p. 6-7.​




John

[1] In Julian Jaynes, The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990), p. 48, Jaynes says, `The most fascinating property of language is its capacity to make metaphors. But what an understatement! For metaphor is not a mere extra trick of language, as it is so often slighted in the old schoolbooks on composition; it is the very constitutive ground of language.’

[2] In Aristotelian logic, relative differences are called particulars and absolute differences are called universals.

[3] Martin Heidegger stumbles onto this reality concerning the nature of `being.’ In his book, An Introduction to Metaphysics, (Yale University Press, 1987), p. 79, Heidegger says, `The being which belongs to every essent [`essent’ as things possessing existence] whatsoever, and which is thus dispersed amoung all that is most current and familiar, is more unique than all else . . . Everything else, each and every essent [things which exist], even if it is unique, can be compared with other things. Its determinability is increased by thse possibilitities of comparison. But virtue of them it is in many respects indeterminate. Being, whowever, can be compared with nothing else. Over against being, the only other is nothing.’
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
If you mean that they saying that evolution and are wrong and could not have happened, then you have misunderstood what they were saying.

Evolution happens, and happened. Natural selection is a process that is real.

What materialists like Yuval Noah Harari, Daniel Dennett, and Ray Kurzweil (and these are just three examples) are now realizing is that a brain that ten thousand years ago (a twinkling of an eye in evolutionary time) couldn't do simple math, or write an coherent sentence, could not, by the dictates of evolution, be sending machines to Mars, doing brain surgery, and creating newfangled living organisms in the lab in the twinkling of an eye so far as evolution is concerned.

Evolution has no mechanism to explain a Neanderthal's giddy excitement at cracking a coconut with a rock just yesterday, in cosmic (evolutionary) time, versus NASA scientist's glee at receiving selfies from Curiosity today.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Duality is an assertion without a rational foundation.

Life requires earth and water, a duality of materials. Assertions require life. Ergo, the assertion that duality is a requirement for thought, and even misplaced, assertive dogmatism, is founded in reason and reality.

Imo, reality is therefore the only fertile soil where a person should try to plant their worldview if they want it to grow fruit rising up to eternity.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter. Even if you were to successfully refute a thousand positions that were in competition with your own, that would do nothing to demonstrate that you are rationally justified in holding your own.

I totally agree. I claim mostly that the rationality of my position is born of it's irrationality. We spoke of this twenty-years ago. I'd hoped we could move on from there:

Now the unexpected ramification of all this – is that it conclusively shows that only a science based on theism can possibly be ultimately correct - since the only a priori belief that wouldn't require an a posteriori justification/observation - is a belief in an absolutely necessary theory/belief! That belief/theory is the only belief/theory that doesn't require an a posteriori (empirical) justification. Thus - the theist is -- incredible as it seems - the only creature who possesses an epistemology that has any possibility of being ultimately correct. To start with any belief, or theory, that isn't a completely necessary belief/theory - is to establish a belief system on the very virtual nature of the observations that require a belief to exist in the first place. That is - if all observations are contaminated with the a priori form of some belief or theory (and the principal of sufficient reason which undergirds all science suggests this is the case) - then every observation is born of a belief/theory - and thus cannot birth that from which it's born.

If an observation is the offspring of a belief or theory - and the point was belabored to show that this is the case - then no observation can give birth to the necessary belief, or theory that Father's all subsequent observations. Therefore - a `necessary belief,’ or theory is the Father of all subsequent observations - and the only possible `necessary belief,’ or theory, is a belief in a `necessary Belief’ – or a `necessary Theory’ (Logos), who (which) represents the belief/theory that starts the ball rolling. When this is not understood, observations are thought to precede theories, which is patently absurd! This idea (observations birthing theories) is a fatal contradiction wrapped in a circular argument, for it states that all observations are born of the theory they give birth to.

Tautological Oxymorons, p. 36.​



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
God's non-existence is

Non-existence is not anything. Your claim is rejected.

. . . Have you ever heard the saying, what's good for the goose is good for the gander? Your statement that non-existence is not anything goes against my believe, and Jean-Luc Nancy's stated opinion, that non-existence is not just nothing. Which is to say, how do you support your "belief" that non-existence is not anything? Why can't non-existence be something even if it's not existence?


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
What allows us to explore - be it basements, mazes or mars - is our curiosity, fear, greed, ingenuity, mobility, and tool use.

For billions of years the curiosity of living organisms got them squat. And in the twinkling of an eye in cosmic time our curiosity produced Curiosity. . . You don't find that curios?



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
This is so offensive. When talking to a black man do you try to make your point by starting “there are a number of smart, famous black people…”? Ick.

. . . No. I'm factual to a fault even if I'm not politically correct. <s>



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
... who are now conceding that man's mind is doing things these days that refute the logic of evolution and natural selection.

This is puerile. I’m sorry to be so blunt, but it just is. If you want to cite someone on the topic of evolution then you should cite a biologist. Or more accurately you should cite biologists who represent the consensus view of those whose field is specifically human evolution. For all I know you are citing smart, famous, atheists who plumbers or historians or cosmologists - which would be freaking useless.

. . . Oh . . . I beg your pardon:

"We have the power to defy the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination. . . . We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators." (Dawkins 77).



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
It's as though some non-material alien has been guiding evolution to the development of the human brain, where, just a few thousand years ago, it finally landed and established a beach-head (so to say).

Your bald assertion is rejected.

. . . Your rejection is based on your rejection of duality, since everything I said in that message was founded on the reality of the necessity of duality; which you errantly rejected.

Life (at least the kind we know of) requires earth and water: a duality. Thought and argumentation (at least the kind we know of) requires life. Ergo, duality is the foundation of every thoughtful, rational, argument.

Your rejection of duality is a deification of your epistemological position since all logic, nay reason itself, is unreasonable where duality is rejected. You appear to reject God because he would create a duality between he and thee in the vying for absolute, dogmatic, assertions of truth.



John
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Knowledgeable theists would, many of them at least, concede that God transcends his creation. A thorough understanding of this divine-transcendence should be aware that saying God transcends everything that is not God is atheistic in that that God doesn't "exist" in his transcendence (since "existing" is circumscribed by existence) but that his transcendence not only is better, higher, than existing, but, in Heidegger's own philosophy, God's non-existence, his a-theistic transcendence, is the polarity necessary for beings to exist.

Jean-Luc Nancy is getting at the same thing when he implies that non-being is not a meaningless nothing as though thing-ness, existing, is everything. . . On the contrary, existing, being, is a meaningless nothing without non-being, God.

Buddhism deals with this concept far better than Western religion such that Heidegger, and many other theologian/philosopher/Christians have borrowed concepts from Eastern religion to speak of these truisms.



John
it is still (without all the verbiage) a dichotomy of terms that is irreconcilable, God cannot be an atheist.
 
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