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Judas, a traitor forever?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Lady Crimson, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. Lady Crimson

    Lady Crimson credo quia absurdum

    Apr 24, 2005
    Well, we all must know who Judas is...for those whon don't...here's a very basic sketch of him...Please excuse any wrong information because I read the Bible when I was runt and haven't remembered everything

    Judas was one of Christ's apostles...He was the one that betrayed Him...He 'sold' Christ for 50 silver coins (or something like that)...When they were in a garden at night, praying (I believe it was an olive garden), Judas kissed Christ...that's how the romans knew who they had to 'arrest'.

    Well....If anyone knows the story better, please tell it...cause I probably made as much sense as a castrated dog on ecstasy. :p

    Now...here's my question...Is Judas regarded still as a traitor?...I've heard several stories stating that Judas regreted having 'sold' Christ and threw away the money he received or similar acts...But even if he didn't...should we regard him as a traitor? I mean, If Christ forgave him (which He probably did), why shouldn't we?
  2. LoPar

    LoPar Member

    Sep 7, 2004
    Does it matter to Judas if we don't forgive him? Likely not if he has received the forgivesness from the man he wronged. Does it matter to ourselves if we can't forgive him? Yes as Jesus asks that we do so.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Sep 27, 2004
    Here is a summary of the arguments about his role;
    Excursus--Theories Advanced for Judas' Betrayal

    1.Figurative Theory--Judas is regarded as mere personification of the spirit of Judaism; however, this makes similar figurative folly of all Scriptures by invalidating their historical value.

    2.Intentional Theory--Judas intended to betray Jesus from his joining with the Eleven (i.e., before becoming a disciple, out of...

    a.Patriotic protectiveness (i.e., Zealot or Sicarii; cf. XIV.A.2.d. above) of race and creed from Jesus, or

    b.Assumption of traitor role used to precipitate an action and to manifest the heavenly nature of Jesus by creating a necessity for angelic intervention for Christ's protection (found among the Cainite sect; based upon Matthew 26:53);

    however Jesus' manner of denunciation and terminology employed render this view untenable. To have selected an apostle, who intended betrayal from the start, is near to being predestination, as Calvinists contend. For Jesus to then denounce him and converse with him, as is done in the Gospels, would be hard to justify.

    3.Demon Possession--Judas was not possessor of his own faculties, as he betrayed Jesus; instead, it was the devil. Jesus said, "Did I not choose you the Twelve and out of you, one is a devil? But he spoke of Judas of Simon Iskarioth, for he, one out of the Twelve, was about to give-over him?" (John 6:70-71).

    a.Apocryphal Citations are printed here because of inaccessibility to average folk, not located near my ministerial library or a large university's holdings. Original texts of the major apocryphal New Testament works are available (but seldom in the U.S.) in editions by Constantine von Tischendorf.

    1.1) Another woman likewise lived there, whose son was possessed by Satan. 2) This boy, named Judas, as often as Satan seized him, was inclined to bite all that were present; and if he found no one else near him, he would bite his own hands and other parts. 3) But the mother of this miserable boy, hearing of St. Mary and her son Jesus, arose presently, and taking her son in her arms, brought him to the Lady Mary. 4) In the meantime, James and Joses had taken away the infant, the Lord Jesus, to play at a proper season with the other children; and when they went forth, they sat down, and the Lord Jesus with them. 5) Then Judas, who was possessed, came and sat down at the right hand of Jesus. 6) When Satan was acting upon him as usual, he went about to bite the Lord Jesus. 7) And because he could not do it, he struck Jesus on the right side, so that he cried-out. 8) And in the same moment Satan went out of the boy, and ran away like a mad dog. 9) This same boy, who struck Jesus, and out of whom Satan went in the form of a dog, was Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him to the Jews. 10) And that same side, on which Judas struck him, the Jews pierced with a spear.
    (I Infancy 14:1-10, The Apocryphal New Testament Philadelphia: Gebbie & Co., n.d.; reprinted. The Lost books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden. n.p.: Collins World, 1963.)

    2.Nearly the same account is summarized by M.R. James:
    Judas, a child possessed by the devil, smites Jesus, and the devil leaves him in the form of a dog.
    (arabic Infancy Gospel, 35, Montague R. James, translator, The Apocryphal New Testament. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924, p. 82 (hereinafter cited as James, Apocryphal NT, following text identification).

    b.Biblically associated texts and statements--Any one could have done the betrayal; anyone headstrong toward evil ("hell-bent" in modern English) is said (then and now) to have the devil in them (John 13:2 and 13:27 show the same occurrence [Note how 13:2 speaks of Luke 22:3f. and parallels having occurred, and John 132 shows temptation alone, while Mark 14:10f. and Matthew 26:14 show overt action, which Luke 22:3f. describes as "Satan entering" him; any purpose other than temptation is without warrant.].) Judas sought an opportunity to deliver the Christ to the priests; a devil possessing him would have not depended upon such trial and error.


    .Under such a system, Jesus' appeals and reproaches (the sop, John 13:26; the question, Luke 22:48; etc.) become entirely meaningless.

    .No one could have been personally responsible for the betrayal under such a system; hence,1.No personal guilt could be applied, and

    2.Judas' title "Son of Destruction" (John 17:12) is meaningless.

    Jesus made no attempt to heal Judas by casting-out devils (if any); or, alternately, the demon possession was not noticed by others, while every other encountered demon possession was met with an exorcism by Christ or the Twelve; plus, how does one explain successful exorcisms being accomplished (Luke 9:1-11 and parallels; cf. 10:1-12 and statement at 10:17-20) by one demon possessed, and not contradict Christ at Matthew 12:25-29? Clearly such is impossible!

    "Double-barreled" Predestinarian Theory--John Calvin (Institutes 3:21:5) defines his predestination as "God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with Himself that he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others." By this Calvin would contend Judas to have been foreordained to be the betrayer and Judas would have no choice in the matter; though, Calvin asserts (3:22:7) that Judas' election as one of the Twelve never contained a hope of salvation. Such doctrine assumes that Jesus initially selected Judas because He knew that Judas should betray Him (omniscence [omniscience is foreknowledge, not predestination], plus John 2:24; 6:64; 18:4), and in order to "fulfill all prophecies" (cf. Matthew 26:54; John 17:12). Calvin contends that every action of man is a "secret command" by God (Institutes 1:18:1). Calvin's translators render the noun with various synonyms following the consistent adjective "secret"; however, the meaning is always the same.
    {If Calvin be accepted in this theory and in this concept of mankind, all humanity performs a puppet skit that would logically conclude universalism. None could be found guilty (protagonist or antagonist), who acted well the part given them. Obedience could be reckoned to the evil ones for a job well done--the pottery would have complied with the purpose given it by the potter, rather than object to being created such as a chamber pot. Such logic is ludicrous for it would relegate God to being a lunatic creator.}


    Under such a system, Jesus' appeals and reproaches (the sop, John 13:26; the question Luke 22:48; etc.) become entirely meaningless--as meaningless and ill-defended as Calvin's use of evangelization in his predestinarian system.

    Presuppositions upon the Kenotic Theories (Philippians 2:7)--the Word's emptying Himself in His becoming as man--assume total omniscience to the Incarnate One, when, Christ's own declaration of limited authority in His Incarnate state prior to Matthew 28:18 should also indicate an omniscience limited to the needs of each moment of his ministry. B.F. Westcott noted (Gospel According to St. John [Greek text], p. 101) that Jesus' "knowledge appears to be truly the knowledge of the Son of Man, and not merely the knowledge of the Divine Word, though at each moment and in each connection it was, in virtue of His perfect humanity, relatively complete. The Gospel has an historic character which might be destroyed should one press Docetism into its interpretation." That which reduces Jesus' historicity and humanity was withheld from him incarnate, but allowed to him as needed (cf. angelic counsel in the garden, transfiguration visitors, etc.).
    http://www.fcclighthouse.com/judas_iscarioth.htm (extract fom)

  4. Lady Crimson

    Lady Crimson credo quia absurdum

    Apr 24, 2005
    The whole thing made me even more confused...:areyoucra

    Still, good information...It shows every point of view! :D
  5. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Oct 17, 2004
    Good point LoPar .

    This question always reminds me of Jesus Christ Superstar , where Judas asks Jesus what he would have done if he had not betrayed him . Think about it . Judas did exacty what he was meant to do . He would had to , to fullfill prophecies . { Psalm 22 I believe ??? , but I could be mistaken }
  6. Prophet Rashad

    Aug 1, 2005
    Well like most people in history once titled something it will follow you till the end of time. Like if I say Ted Bundy you will think of him as a killer he may have prayed for salvation right before he was killed. If Judas had betrayed lets say Peter then he would still be branded a traitor but the severity of the name will not be as much but because he betrayed the Christ then he will be branded a traitor forever