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Judaism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Byjayfzv, May 15, 2015.

  1. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not angry. What happened two years ago? Responsible for what? And what does any of that have to do with being rebellious?

    But at least I'm glad to see that you've given up the futility of proving something that isn't true.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It is a wrong concept that Jews were any chosen people if they did wrong.

    The Jewry of the time of Moses was summoned at the foot of the Mountain not to reward them. YHWH was not happy with them but to show them His displeasure.

    Exodus 16:2
    1 Then they set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the sons of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt. 2 The whole congregation of the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. 3 The sons of Israel said to them, "Would that we had died by the LORD'S hand in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat, when we ate bread to the full; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."…

    The Jews were not worthy of direct converse with YHWH.

    The present Jews should understand and ask forgiveness of YHWH.

    Regards
     
    #162 paarsurrey, May 27, 2015
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    tl;dr
    Sorry guys. I have no logical response to your arguments. So I'm just gonna get the last word and call it a day.
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The post is not that long. A few sentences and four verses from Bible, your Holy Book in support of my reasonable argument.
    Regards
     
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    If there's one thing you've managed to do here, it definitely is not a reasonable argument. And I think a number of posters have already proven that. I don't mean that as an attack against you. I'm sure you're a very reasonable person in real life. But your argument here is extremely flimsy.
     
  6. Kolibri

    Kolibri Well-Known Member

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    I bet you have an emotional response.o_Oo_O:mad::rolleyes:

    Regardless your assertion, @paarsurrey does not carry with it support within the scriptures.

    People do not need to repent for the sins of their fathers. There are natural consequences that occur because of our ancestors but no one is guilty for their father's errors. Let me break this down into 2 areas of logic.

    Natural Consequences

    "You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." - Exodus 20:4,5

    Even if someone tries to say this is more than natural consequences, Jehovah remembers the loyalty of his friends in regards to their offspring much, much longer than their disloyalty.

    Everyone must stand for their own actions

    "And just as I watched over them to uproot, to pull down, to tear down, to destroy, and to do harm, so I will watch over them to build up and to plant," declares Jehovah. "In those days they will no longer say, 'The fathers ate sour grapes, but the teeth of the sons were set on edge.' (Lit., "got blunted.") But then each one will die for his own error. Any man eating sour grapes will have his own teeth set on edge." - Jeremiah 31:28-30

    The writings of a contemporary of Jeremiah shows that this human proverb was always a misunderstanding on how things were.

    And the word of Jehovah again came to me saying: "What does this proverb that you quote in the land of Israel mean, 'Fathers have eaten sour grapes, but the teeth of the sons are set on edge'? "'As surely as I am alive,' declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'you will not continue to quote this saying in Israel. Look! All the souls (or "lives.") - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul (or "person.") who sins is the one who will die'"..."'But you will say: "Why does the son not bear guilt because of his father's error?" Since the son has done what is just and righteous, has kept all my statues and has observed them, he will surely keep living. The soul (or "person.") who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone.'" - Eze 18:1-4,19,20

    We see a case of this even when the Israelites were in the wilderness. Korah died for his error, along with all who supported him. But his sons separated themselves before the divine judgement was carried out. (Nu 26:10,11) These sons are credited for composing eleven of the sacred songs found in the book of Psalms. (These are Psalms 42,44-49,84,85,87, and 88.)

    Auxiliary

    It was because the nation was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah that they experienced a heavier responsibility - with consequences - then those around them. They were his witnesses, and what they did and did not do reflected on Jehovah's name. The rest of mankind at the time were, for the most part, left to their own devices as long as they did not show contempt for Jehovah's people.

    I will say to the north, 'Give them up!'
    And to the south, 'Do no hold them back.
    Bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth,
    Everyone who is called by my name
    And whom I created for my own glory,
    Whom I have formed and made.'
    ...
    "I am the One who declared and saved and made known
    When there was no foreign god among you.
    So you are my witnesses," declares Jehovah, "and I am God."
    - Isaiah 43:6,7,12
     
    #166 Kolibri, May 27, 2015
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I am presenting the essence of the truth; the scripture only has the remnants of the Word Revealed on Moses, otherwise it is neither written by Moses nor dictated by Moses. The narrators/scribes/clergy have played havoc with the scriptures.

    Regards
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If this is your claim, then how can any textual argument be useful? Can't any claim based in text be countered by saying that the text as we have it is simply incomplete or wrong? Why would you think that your textual examples would be any more authoritative or persuasive if they are subject to the same counter argument?
     
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  9. Kolibri

    Kolibri Well-Known Member

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    Now I am not a biblical scholar, reading the manuscripts directly, etc, but I do recall reading these two paragraphs, (and other material regarding the meticulous nature of the work of the copyists that made extensive notes when they did 'change' anything.)

    Regarding the Hebrew Scriptures, part of the answer lies in an ancient tradition that was established by God, who said that the text should be copied.* For example, Jehovah instructed the kings of Israel to make their own copies of the written Law. (Deuteronomy 17:18) Additionally, God made the Levites responsible for preserving the Law and teaching it to the people. (Deuteronomy 31:26; Nehemiah 8:7) After the exile of the Jews to Babylon, a class of copyists, or scribes (Sopherim), developed. (Ezra 7:6, footnotes) Over time, those scribes made numerous copies of the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Through the centuries, scribes meticulously copied these books. During the Middle Ages, a group of Jewish scribes known as the Masoretes carried on that tradition. The oldest complete Masoretic manuscript is the Leningrad Codex, which dates from 1008/1009 C.E. However, in the middle of the 20th century, some 220 Biblical manuscripts or fragments were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Those Biblical manuscripts were more than a thousand years older than the Leningrad Codex. A comparison of the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Leningrad Codex confirms a vital point: While the Dead Sea Scrolls contain some variations in wording, none of those variations affect the message itself.
    - A3 How the Bible Came to Us — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    My own personal reading of an English edition of the these Scriptures shows an overwhelming amount of honesty in not holding back from expressing the faults of even those writing the books. And the thoughts between books shows a great deal of harmony in the message - enough to prove to me that that they had the same author, regardless of what man, in what century, wrote it. And as the above shows there is a lot of reason to trust what we do have. I will concede that I do not have the same faith in the Talmuds as being a product of God's spirit. But as regards the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings - the 39 books we find in the English Bibles - that confidence is secure.
     
    #169 Kolibri, May 28, 2015
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It doesn't need to be a scholar to read Bible and to understand it correctly.
    Just read the following verses:

    11 . One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens; and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people.

    12 . He looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. (Ex. 2:11-12)​

    Even a child will know from reading them that the verses are written by a third person or a narrator. These verses are neither written by Moses nor dictated by him.

    Right
     
  11. Kolibri

    Kolibri Well-Known Member

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    This was not the last time the Bible books were written in the 3rd person.

    The book of Jonah is written in the same style as well as the 10th chapter of Ezra and the first 6 chapters of Daniel. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Haggai all do the same. It was common practice.

    Even ancient secular historians, including Xenophon and Thucydides, did this. Yet it is noteworthy that the genuineness of their accounts has never been called into question on this basis.
     
  12. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman: Yes, what good is atheist's to the world? :zap:
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    You mean this practice started with the book of Exodus and it did not exist earlier? Please

    Regards
     
  14. Kolibri

    Kolibri Well-Known Member

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    That is assuming all writing began with Moses. It did not. But the Torah is the oldest we have surviving of the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the Christians wrote in the 3rd person. For sure, John did more than once. People still refer to themselves in the 3rd person from time to time.

    But we are all allowed to make our own judgements as to what we want to agree with. And I will not debate with you further on this matter.
     
    #174 Kolibri, May 28, 2015
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
  15. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman:

    2 Nephi 25:5 Yea, and my soul delighteth in the words of Isaiah, for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews, and I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.

    2 Nephi 29: 3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. 4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
     
  16. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman:

    2 Nephi 25:5 Yea, and my soul delighteth in the words of Isaiah, for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews, and I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.

    2 Nephi 29: 3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. 4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
     
  17. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman: To Byjayfzv,

    2 Nephi 25:5 Yea, and my soul delighteth in the words of Isaiah, for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews, and I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.

    2 Nephi 29: 3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. 4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? 5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
     
  18. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman: The name indicated first of all a man of the kingdom of Judah, as distinguished from persons belonging to the northern kingdom of Israel. Its first chronological occurrence in the Bible is in 2 Kgs. 16:6, about 740 B.C. It has become customary to use the word Jew to refer to all the descendants of Jacob, but this is a mistake. It would be limited to those of the kingdom of Judah or, more especially today, those of the tribe of Judah and his associates. Thus all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews, because there are descendants of the other tribes of Israel also upon the earth. See also 2 Ne. 33:8.

    2 Kings 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day

    Source:

    Bible Dictionary
     
  19. Norman

    Norman Defender of Truth

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    Norman: I was a Jew before I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints. My family are still all Jews and dis-owned me thirty years ago. The Jews know that Judaism has deep roots all the way back to the Old Testament. They were and still are God's covenant people and he will remember his promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    So one agrees that there was no such practice in the times of Moses to write one's own biography in the third person. Exodus was not written by Moses and Moses did not dictate it to anybody.

    If there was any such practice in the times of Moses or before him, please give proofs and evidences.

    Thanks and regards
     
    #180 paarsurrey, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
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