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Judaism

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
So one agrees that there was no such practice in the times of Moses to write one's own biography in the third person. Exodus was not written by Moses and Moses did not dictate it to anybody.

If there was any such practice in the times of Moses or before him, please give proofs and evidences.

Thanks and regards

I think I clearly stated that while one may take the the position that writing in the 3rd person is proof that one was not being autobiographical, I am not one of those people.
To me the argument is too flimsy. But there is no reason to argue the point. Each of us has a right to decide what is reasonable in their own minds and hearts - and forcing an opinion never lasts anyway.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Norman: Yes, what good is atheist's to the world? :zap:
LOL, what good is theist to the world? Theists are only good to the "beyond",not the here and now. What good ate theist to the HERE AN NOW? Other than the bla blah blah that MAY, MIGHTE, PERHAPS, COUPLD, POSSIBLE,WE BELIVE, may be; WTF to theists have to offer? Atheists offer answers to the HER AND NOW! The question is..Can you demonstrate more good here and now or can you acutely delude yourself into thinking that some other after life is more improtant than than here and now?
 

Popcorn

What is it?
LOL, what good is theist to the world? Theists are only good to the "beyond",not the here and now. What good ate theist to the HERE AN NOW? Other than the bla blah blah that MAY, MIGHTE, PERHAPS, COUPLD, POSSIBLE,WE BELIVE, may be; WTF to theists have to offer? Atheists offer answers to the HER AND NOW! The question is..Can you demonstrate more good here and now or can you acutely delude yourself into thinking that some other after life is more improtant than than here and now?

Can you? No. Why should anyone who believes in God do anything to make your world a better place if all you're capable of doing is being a jerk?
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
LOL, what good is theist to the world? Theists are only good to the "beyond",not the here and now. What good ate theist to the HERE AN NOW? Other than the bla blah blah that MAY, MIGHTE, PERHAPS, COUPLD, POSSIBLE,WE BELIVE, may be; WTF to theists have to offer? Atheists offer answers to the HER AND NOW! The question is..Can you demonstrate more good here and now or can you acutely delude yourself into thinking that some other after life is more improtant than than here and now?

Norman: FunctionalAtheist said "WTF" why don't you watch your tongue, no need for swearing. You are correct, there is something more than here and now. Your un-belief in that concept does not change the facts. Atheist's keep trying to explain it all away. If you want to believe that you swung a wooden club at a dinosaur and your ancestors are monkeys and apes, go for it. My ancestors are not monkeys and apes. So, again, what good are atheist's to the world?
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
I am presenting the essence of the truth; the scripture only has the remnants of the Word Revealed on Moses, otherwise it is neither written by Moses nor dictated by Moses. The narrators/scribes/clergy have played havoc with the scriptures.

Regards

Norman: Moses didn't have a scribe, he and he alone wrote his own accounts.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
paarsurrey said:
Please quote full chapters 19 and 20 from Exodus, when the event happened.


Deuteronomy - Chapter 4

1And now, O Israel, hearken to the statutes and to the judgments which I teach you to do, in order that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord, God of your forefathers, is giving you.
2Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3Your eyes have seen what the Lord did at Baal Peor, for every man who went after Baal Peor, the Lord your God has exterminated from your midst.
4But you who cleave to the Lord your God are alive, all of you, this day.
5Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, as the Lord, my God, commanded me, to do so in the midst of the land to which you are coming to possess.
6And you shall keep [them] and do [them], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, "Only this great nation is a wise and understanding people. "
7For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him? :
8And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
9But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children,
10the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
12The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.
13And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.
14And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.
15And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
16Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
17the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,
18the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.
19And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
20But the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day.
21And the Lord was angry with me because of you, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan and that I would not come into the good land the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.
22For I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan. You, however, will cross, and you will possess this good land.
23Beware, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image, the likeness of anything, which the Lord your God has forbidden you.
24For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a zealous God.
25When you beget children and children's children, and you will be long established in the land, and you become corrupt and make a graven image, the likeness of anything, and do evil in the eyes of the Lord your God, to provoke Him to anger,
26I call as witness against you this very day the heaven and the earth, that you will speedily and utterly perish from the land to which you cross the Jordan, to possess; you will not prolong your days upon it, but will be utterly destroyed.
27And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations to where the Lord will lead you.
28And there you will worship gods, man's handiwork, wood and stone, which neither see, hear, eat, nor smell.
29And from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
30When you are distressed, and all these things happen upon you in the end of days, then you will return to the Lord your God and obey Him.
31For the Lord your God is a merciful God; He will not let you loose or destroy you; neither will He forget the covenant of your fathers, which He swore to them.
32For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard?
33Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live?
34Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.
36From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire,
37and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength,
38to drive out from before you nations greater and stronger than you, to bring you and give you their land for an inheritance, as this day.
39And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
40And you shall observe His statutes and His commandments, which I command you this day, that it may be well with you and your children after you, and that you may prolong your days upon the earth which the Lord your God gives you forever.
41Then Moses decided to separate three cities on the side of the Jordan towards the sunrise,
42so that a murderer might flee there, he who murders his fellow man unintentionally, but did not hate him in time past, that he may flee to one of these cities, so that he might live:
43Bezer in the desert, in the plain country of the Reubenites, Ramoth in Gilead of the Gadites, and Golan in the Bashan of the Menassites.
44And this is the teaching which Moses set before the children of Israel:
45These are the testimonies, statutes and ordinances, which Moses spoke to the children of Israel when they went out of Egypt,
46on the side of the Jordan in the valley, opposite Beth Peor, in the land of Sihon, king of the Amorites, who dwelt in Heshbon, whom Moses and the children of Israel smote, after they went out of Egypt.
47And they possessed his land and the land of Og, king of the Bashan, the two kings of the Amorites, who were on the side of the Jordan, towards the sunrise,
48from Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, to Mount Sion, which is Hermon,
49and all the plain across the Jordan eastward as far as the sea of the plain, under the waterfalls of the hill.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 4 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Now prove your viewpoint, please.

Regards

Norman: You are missing a point here. During Old Testament times, the Law of Moses was simply known as “the covenant.” When the new covenant, or gospel of Jesus Christ as was had by Adam, was restored during the Lord’s mortal ministry, the Law of Moses then became known as the “old” covenant or testament, and the Christians called Jesus’ gospel the “new” testament or covenant.

Genesis reflects the new covenant or the gospel of Jesus Christ. Since the story of Genesis precedes the issuing of the Law of Moses, Genesis is not technically a part of the Old Testament or “old” covenant except as an introduction or preface to the Law and an account of Israel’s origins. Its importance in that role must not be overlooked, however. If the Bible were to start with Exodus, we would begin with Israel in Egypt with no idea of their lineage and identity, nor of the earlier covenant the Lord made with Abraham. We would have no prior knowledge of Jehovah and his role in creating and peopling the world and in guiding and blessing the patriarchs.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
It is not the Torah but it is the Prophets

Remember the former (Lit., "first.") things of long ago,
That I am God, (or "the Divine One.") and there is no other.
I am God, and there is no other.
I am God, and there is no one like me.
From the beginning I foretell the outcome,
And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.
I say, 'My decision (or "purpose; counsel.") will stand,
And I will do whatever I please.'
- Isaiah 46:9,10

Norman: Hi Kolibri, I just wanted to share a few points. During Old Testament times, the Law of Moses was simply known as “the covenant.” When the new covenant, or gospel of Jesus Christ as was had by Adam, was restored during the Lord’s mortal ministry, the Law of Moses then became known as the “old” covenant or testament, and the Christians called Jesus’ gospel the “new” testament or covenant.

Genesis reflects the new covenant or the gospel of Jesus Christ. Since the story of Genesis precedes the issuing of the Law of Moses, Genesis is not technically a part of the Old Testament or “old” covenant except as an introduction or preface to the Law and an account of Israel’s origins. Its importance in that role must not be overlooked, however. If the Bible were to start with Exodus, we would begin with Israel in Egypt with no idea of their lineage and identity, nor of the earlier covenant the Lord made with Abraham. We would have no prior knowledge of Jehovah and his role in creating and peopling the world and in guiding and blessing the patriarchs.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The "Covenant" is of Abrahamic origin, thus found in Genesis, but is reinforced and much enlargened by the Mosaiic Covenant with the additional Laws God added to the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant is commemorated by a required male circumcision on the 8th day after birth, and this is reinforced in the Mosaiic Law, and only Jews observe this mandate. Genesis has really nothing directly to do with either Jesus or Christianity, but there obviously in an indirect connection.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Friend Tumah quoted Deuteronomy - Chapter 4:12 to prove that G-d spoke directly to the Israelite nation as a whole.


Deuteronomy does not supersede the points given in Exodus. Deuteronomy cannot change the event as narrated in Exodus, as the event was just happening at that time. Deuteronomy was exhortation addresses of what had already happened.

The points mentioned by me about Exodus Chapters 19, 20 in my post # 21 <Judaism: no mass revelation of G-d with Jews mentioned in Exodus Chapter 19 and 20 | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com>, therefore, remain still valid.

The text of the chapters 19,20 of Exodus indicates that:
• neither the people went up the mountain (only Moses and Aaron went as per the text) none other went,
• nor YHWH descended to the masses to talk with them directly,
• the masses were afraid of the YHWH lest He wreaks at them. (What chosen people they , the Jews, claim to be?)
• there was a barricade for the Jews, they could no cross it.
• The conversation was between YHWH and Moses in direct manner up at the mountain.
• It is therefore evident that the communication was indirectly conveyed to masses by Moses.

That proves my point.

Moses wanted to save the Jewish people from the iniquities they could perform in future. The Jews disobeyed Moses and as a people acted against the commandments given to them through Moses by God as mentioned in Deuteronomy.
Instead of being a select people, the Jews became the worst people.

This chapter four of Deuteronomy served as a future charge-sheet given to the Jews by Moses himself.

Regards

Norman: Moses 1:1 The words of God, which he spake‍ unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain, 2 And he saw‍ God face to face, and he talked‍ with him, and the glory‍ of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence. 3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless‍ is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? 4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship‍ of mine hands; but not all, for my works‍ are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold‍ all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth. 6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude‍ of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace‍ and truth; but there is no‍ God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know‍ them all.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
Stop feeding it guys. Just look at the OP's post history. It's a wonder he hasn't been banned yet.
 
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