Joseph Smith's Bible version

[Katzpur]

It still would have big news if there were DNA links between the Mayans or Meso-indian tribes (or even Incan tribes) and the Israelites. So I heard nothing, but so-called LDS pseudo-scientists making such discovery/claims. All DNA still links American Indians, including Olmec, Mayans and Incans to Asiatic race, not Semitic people.

Specifically, gnostic, which LDS pseudo-scientists did you have in mind?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Specifically, gnostic, which LDS pseudo-scientists did you have in mind?

Good question. Let me ask another one. Can you name any peer-reviewed, non-Mormon geneticist who suggests that the Mormon claim is scientifically credible?

 

[Katzpur]

Good question. Let me ask another one. Can you name any peer-reviewed, non-Mormon geneticist who suggests that the Mormon claim is scientifically credible?

Well, this is a topic that doesn't hold a great deal of interest for me, so off the top of my head, I'd have to say 'no.' I'll do a little research, though, and see what I can come up with.

As far as I'm concerned, though, if the scientist is credible, his religion really shouldn't be an issue. Furthermore, most of the articles I am aware of don't even mention the religion of the individual doing the study. So where do I go from here? Do I simply assume that if a particular scientist's work is referenced in an article published by an LDS-affiliated group, the scientist must be LDS and, by extension, incapable of legitimate scholarship?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Predictably well said.

 

[silvermoon383]

This link has a whole list of articles about DNA and the Book of Mormon. I know at least one is from a non-Mormon scientist, but I'm not sure which.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai195.html

 

[Katzpur]

I did find one excellent article on the subject by Scott R. Woodward. Here is his bio...

Scott R. Woodward is currently a Professor of Microbiology and faculty member of the Molecular Biology Program at Brigham Young University. He is also head of the Molecular Genealogy Research Group at BYU. While completing his postdoctoral work in molecular genetics at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at the University of Utah, he discovered a genetic marker used for the identification of carriers and the eventual discovery of the gene for cystic fibrosis. He was also involved with the identification of other gene markers for colon cancer and neurofibromatiosis. He joined the faculty at BYU in 1989 and has been involved with several excavation teams in Seila, Egypt. While in Egypt, he directed the genetic and molecular analysis of Egyptian mummies, both from a commoners' cemetery and from Egyptian Royal tombs. Dr. Woodward has been the Scholar in Residence at the BYU Center for Near Eastern Studies in Jerusalem and a visiting professor at Hebrew University. His work has been featured both nationally and internationally on numerous programs including Good Morning America and both the Discovery and Learning Channel.

Is this guy a pseudo-scientist or the genuine article? He's LDS. Is that the answer?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is this guy a pseudo-scientist or the genuine article. He's LDS. Is that the answer?

Given the bio there certainly should be the presumption that he's genuine. Does he say that the Mormon claim is scientifically credible?

 

[Katzpur]

Given the bio there certainly should be the presumption that he's genuine. Does he say that the Mormon claim is scientifically credible?

Before I answer that, how clear are you as to what "the Mormon claim" actually is?

 

[dan]

Good question. Let me ask another one. Can you name any peer-reviewed, non-Mormon geneticist who suggests that the Mormon claim is scientifically credible?

Can you name any peer-reviewed non-ANTImormon geneticist who has even looked at the sceintific credibility of the Mormon claim? I await your predictable answer.

 

[dan]

That question is a little misleading, because none of the geneticists doing any of this research are in any way involved in religious questions. It's funny how you can twist a little fact (that means absolutely nothing) around so you sound smart and well informed while, at the same time, you make the other person's argument seem weak and illegitimate. You are aware of the baseness of that tactic, aren't you?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can you name any peer-reviewed non-ANTImormon geneticist who has even looked at the sceintific credibility of the Mormon claim? I await your predictable answer.

Leaving aside the childishness of the question, and although

[Bio] Thomas W. Murphy is Chair, Department of Anthropology at Edmonds Community College (EdCC) in Lynnwood, WA. He is a Ph.D. candidate in anthropology at the University of Washington where he is currently completing a doctoral dissertation on Mormon uses of the Popol Vuh, a 16th century Quiché Mayan text. His articles on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Native Americans appear in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Ethnohistory, Journal of Mormon History, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, and Sunstone. Tom is the recipient of Dialogue's 1997 Theology and Scripture Writing Award for his article "Laban's Ghost: On Writing and Transgression" (30.2 [1997], 105-126). [source]​

... and not a geneticist, he does reference Scott Woodward, Professor of Microbiology at Brigham Young University. Specifically:

Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics​

¶1 In March 2000 Scott Woodward, Professor of Microbiology at Brigham Young University (BYU), launched a multi-million dollar human molecular genealogy study funded by philanthropists Ira Fulton and James Sorenson.[2] The Molecular Genealogy Research Group (MGRG) uses DNA evidence to identify genealogical connections between present and past humans. Increasing interest in using DNA to trace family histories and linkages between human populations offers considerable promise to Latter-day Saint genealogical endeavors.[3] It also constitutes a boost to broader scientific research into the history and geography of human genes as well as global migration and world population histories.[4] While the embrace of human molecular research at a university owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is likely a welcome development for most well-educated Mormons, this burgeoning interest may provoke some reconsideration of assumptions about human geography and history long held by many, if not most, Mormons.

¶2 Some Latter-day Saints have expressed optimism that DNA research would lead to a vindication of the BoMor as a translation of a genuine ancient document. The hope is that DNA research would link Native Americans to ancient Israelites, buttressing LDS beliefs in a way that has not been forthcoming from archaeological, linguistic, historical, or morphological research. The results, though, have been disappointing.[5] So far, DNA research lends no support to traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans. Genetic data repeatedly point to migrations from Asia between 7,000 and 50,000 years ago as the primary source of Native American origins. DNA research has substantiated the archaeological, cultural, linguistic, and biological evidence that also points overwhelmingly to an Asian origin for Native Americans. While DNA evidence shows that ultimately all human populations are rather closely related, to date no intimate genetic link has been found between ancient Israelites and the indigenous peoples of the Americas—much less within the time frame suggested by the BoMor.[6] After considering recent research in molecular anthropology, summarized here, I have concluded that Latter-day Saints should not expect to find validation for the BoMor in genetics. My assessment echoes that of geneticist and former LDS Bishop Simon Southerton whose survey of the literature on Native American DNA also "failed to find anything that supported migration of Jewish people before Columbus." He concluded "the truth is that there is no reliable scientific evidence supporting migrations from the Middle East to the New World."[7]

¶3 This essay outlines two significant insights into the geography and history of human genes and their implications for Mormon thought. If the new embrace of DNA research has an impact on Mormon views of the world, it will likely propel new approaches to scripture and history already underway in Mormon intellectual circles. First, the genealogical data inscribed in human genes suggest to current researchers that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor that lived in Africa between five and seven million years ago. This genetic data adds to the abundance of archaeological, fossil, and anatomical data pointing to ancient human origins in Africa and adds to difficulties in upholding scriptural literalism. Second, genealogical data inscribed in genes of modern humans and ancient American skeletons not only helps researchers to identify ultimate origins but also provides clues to ancient migration patterns. Current genetic data suggest that ancestors of Native Americans separated from their Asian neighbors about 40-50,000 years ago and from each other in what may have been three or more separate waves of migration by 7-15,000 years ago. No support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the data. [ibid]​

I'll let your transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof speak for itself. :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Jay,

I'm not even going to pretend to understand enough about this subject to try to argue on behalf of the LDS position. This stuff is so far over my head it's not even funny.
As soon as someone makes mention of Mitochondrial DNA, the Cohen Modal Haplotype or Polymorphism Gradients, I quickly remember why the life sciences were a nightmare for me in high school and college. I get lost within the first two paragraphs of any article on the subject. However, what I have managed to glean from most articles I've attempted to read and from most speakers I've made a vain effort to understand is that it is the consensus of LDS scientists that we musn't be in too big of a hurry to rush to a premature conclusion. As you may or may not know, the LDS Church is not of the opinion that all of the Native American people have Middle Eastern ancestry, only that some of them do. So far, studies have produced no evidence (that I'm aware of) that any of them do. From the little bit I have been able to understand, though, most of the LDS scientists that have written on the subject have been primarily concerned with showing why the opposition's conclusions are flawed, and why further research is needed before they can justify pronouncing the case closed. The science of DNA is, after all, still relatively new. Twenty or thirty years from now, who knows what it will turn up.

Anyway, here, if you're interested, is an article that seems to me to be fairly characteristic of most I have seen:
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_2.html

 

[gnostic]

I really reckon that one of us should have started a new topic, on DNA, Book of Mormon and the American Native Indians, because we go so far off topic. This was originally about Joseph Smith's version of the bible. *sigh*

It is without a doubt, a very interesting topic, but it no longer have any bearing on the original theme.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Anyway, here, if you're interested, is an article that seems to me to be fairly characteristic of most I have seen:
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_2.html

Great article. Thanks.

 

[dan]

That is a good article, and it clears up a lot of the assumptions that non-Mormons make about what the Book of Mormon really says. While they should look a little harder, most of the blame rests with the Mormons who think the same thing as the critics about what it really says. I've already posted one link that explains the ties between Israeli blood and ancient native american, but since no one addressed it, I'll repost it. To begin with, though, here's an interesting article about the gentleman you quoted. He has been criticizing his church for years in many different arenas. The research you qoute was actually funded by anti-Mormons. He raised a stink about being ex-communicated and this article goes into his story (why do people who spend years attacking a church get so offended when that church doesn't want them anymore?):

http://www.fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/Motivation_Behavior_and_Dissension.html

This link will give you a response from the Church about the issue as well as many different articles addressing the issue:

http://www.lds.org/newsroom/mistakes/0,15331,3885-1-18078,00.html

What kind of blood does the Book of Mormon say should be present in Native Americans?

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme13.shtml

The words of Bruce R. McKonkie from 33 years ago:

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,Verdana][SIZE=-1]"The American Indians . . . as Columbus found them also had other blood than that of Israel in their veins. It is possible that isolated remnants of the Jaredites may have lived through the period of destruction in which millions of their fellows perished. It is quite apparent that groups of orientals found their way over the Bering Strait and gradually moved southward to mix with the Indian peoples. We have records of a colony of Scandinavians attempting to set up a settlement in America some 500 years before Columbus. There are archeological indications that an unspecified number of groups of people probably found their way from the old to the new world in pre-Columbian times. Out of all these groups would have come the American Indians as they were discovered in the 15th century."

This link has the main DNA arguments I have mentioned, but they're hard to find amidst the other stuff. Go to this link:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#derenko

Go to the Table of Contents and read the articles under "Enter Haplogroup X" and "[/SIZE][/FONT]Discovery of Haplogroup X in Siberia." In short, there is an element of Ancient Native American DNA that comes from a European or Middle Eastern ancestor. It is found in some Israeli, Finnish and Italian blood.

I think this argument might work better in that thread about Mormon Scholarship. [FONT=Geneva,Arial,Verdana][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Halcyon]

Maybe when God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin, he did so by altering their DNA, thus removing the markers necessary for identification between the Native American and Middle Eastern populations.

I don't believe this, obviously, but is there anything wrong with this suggestion from the Mormon perspective?

 

[SoyLeche]

Maybe when God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin, he did so by altering their DNA, thus removing the markers necessary for identification between the Native American and Middle Eastern populations.

I don't believe this, obviously, but is there anything wrong with this suggestion from the Mormon perspective?

Nothing wrong with it at all. Personally, I believe that the darker skin actually came from intermariage with other people that were already there, so that would actually be an alteration in the DNA - sort of

 

[gnostic]

I saw a documentary where they trace ancestry root of students in British school, to trace where they came from. I don't remember what this documentary was about, but it was very interesting. Through DNA, they traced the children to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Midland, etc. Some children can be trace back to several different areas of Britain.

No matter how much intermarriage is going on with non-Lamanite tribes, all traces of the ancient Israelite's DNA (from Lamanites) would not completely drop out of the today's DNA on Meso-American or Andrean Indians. I don't find this to be realistic.

 

[dan]

I saw a documentary where they trace ancestry root of students in British school, to trace where they came from. I don't remember what this documentary was about, but it was very interesting. Through DNA, they traced the children to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Midland, etc. Some children can be trace back to several different areas of Britain.

No matter how much intermarriage is going on with non-Lamanite tribes, all traces of the ancient Israelite's DNA (from Lamanites) would not completely drop out of the today's DNA on Meso-American or Andrean Indians. I don't find this to be realistic.

Which is why we find traces of Israelites in Indian DNA.

 

[gnostic]

You mean "should", Dan. "Should".

So far, the larger scientific communities had found no such DNA evidences. Otherwise, people would be rewriting their science books.

So far the LDS claims have not materialise. There are also no evidences linguistic-wise or in literature, other Joseph's claim in his BoM and his teaching.