Joseph Smith's Bible version

[Katzpur]

As some of the Mormons have said here, the KJV is used, but not entirely accurate. Comparing the Joseph Smith's version of the OT with JPS will see how accurate Joseph Smith's insight is.

Gnostic, see my response just above your last post. It addresses this issue.

 

[gnostic]

That is to how accurate you believe his 'insight' is.

We believe is more then just accurate, is dead-on, and it just isn't 'insight', it's revelation.

Then you should understand why non-LDS people, like me would be sceptical, if it is only based on "revelation".

I'll question everything and anything, because that is how I work as a researcher on mythology... My expertise is in mythology not religion, but I always try to look at any literature, whether they be historical, religious or mythological, to check the sources as much as possible and to rely on good translations of primary sources, instead of secondary sources or merely rephrasing of a translation (which is basically what Joseph Smith's version).

I am the same way with non-LDS bible or any other religious scriptures - to be critical when analysing the texts and comparing one version from another.

 

[Katzpur]

Then you should understand why non-LDS people, like me would be sceptical, if it is only based on "revelation".

Sure, I think most of us do understand that. It all gets down to faith; either you have it or you don't. Most Christians would probably agree that true revelation from God would supercede scholarship on most any subject. The question is, did God really reveal Himself to Joseph Smith? If He did, it doesn't really matter what the available texts say.

 

[gnostic]

It does with me.

I still question everything.

Did God create the world and Adam and Eve?

Did Flood destroy every single living being except what was save in the Ark?

Did Moses part the Red Sea? Or receive the Ten Commandment?

Was Jesus really conceived divinely? Was he resurrected?

Did Muhammad receive a visitation from Gabriel? Did he receive the Qur'an from Allah?

The same could be said about Joseph Smith (but from a different angel)? Did Joseph Smith really receive and translate the gold plates?

Not of these can be proven, so what else can I do but question any writings, let alone any revelation.

Can you understand why some people would have reservation with translation of supposedly gold plates, but there are no gold plates to verify Joseph Smith's claims and a few eye-witnesses? I feel the same doubts and scepticism with Muhammad's claims of revelations.

 

[dan]

how does one find those answers?

 

[gnostic]

I don't see how there can be answers that are conclusive, except through faith, but I have little faith on just relying on the texts alone. But you have to work with what you have, not what you hope to have, since that will be bringing the back to the starting-point - on faith.

Do you ever question why that we don't have anything that are verifiable in regarding to religion?

 

[Katzpur]

It does with me.

I still question everything.

Did God create the world and Adam and Eve?

Did Flood destroy every single living being except what was save in the Ark?

Did Moses part the Red Sea? Or receive the Ten Commandment?

Was Jesus really conceived divinely? Was he resurrected?

Did Muhammad receive a visitation from Gabriel? Did he receive the Qur'an from Allah?

The same could be said about Joseph Smith (but from a different angel)? Did Joseph Smith really receive and translate the gold plates?

Not of these can be proven, so what else can I do but question any writings, let alone any revelation.

Can you understand why some people would have reservation with translation of supposedly gold plates, but there are no gold plates to verify Joseph Smith's claims and a few eye-witnesses? I feel the same doubts and scepticism with Muhammad's claims of revelations.

You know what? In my opinion, every one of those questions is entirely valid, and I would not even attempt to discourage anyone from asking them. My own perspective is best expressed by Robert Millet, Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. He said, "I have come to know that although ours is a thoughtful faith, one that requires reason as well as revelation, it is often necessary to place our unanswered questions on a shelf, to suspend intellectual judgment while findings from study manage to catch up with the feelings and impressions abtained from the Spirit of God."

 

[gnostic]

That's a very good statement you have quoted, katzpur. I just wished everyone would feel the same way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... we believe Joseph's translation was accomplished by revelation, and not by scholarly knowledge of any ancient language.

Therefore, it is insulated from, and indifferent to, scholarly inquiry.

 

[benjosh]

Scholars are not God.

 

[gnostic]

Scholars are not God.

Most Christians would probably agree that true revelation from God would supercede scholarship on most any subject.

Scholarship is important. Without it, the mainstream Christian bible would have very little worth in my mind.

My problem is how do you verify or quantify this "true" revelation?

The bible is all written by man, as it the Qur'an and other sacred scriptures. Only some parts of scripture in the Bible are revelations, in which "God" speak to the prophets, but the rest are view from the human perspective in their relationship with God. You are forgetting that what's in the bible is recording of very human events, more so than just some prophecies from divine sources.

But with the Qur'an and Joseph Smith, it would seemed that their entire records are based on "revelations" that can't be verify. Smith's and Muhammad's lives can be verify historically, but not for what they have written to "revealed truth" cannot be substantiated beyond accept them as simple faith.

How can there be any verification of angels visiting prophets like Ezekial, Isaiah, Muhammad, Joseph Smith? How can it be verify that JS had translated the gold plates into the Book of Mormon, when those plates had disappear after the translation? A few friends of JS seeing the plates, cannot be count as independent witnesses.

Even for the Ten Commandments, there are no where in the bible that state that it was composed or written by God. Everything was clearly recorded from a human perspective, even the prophecies are associated with the biblical prophets. But JS and Muhammad claim differently, and there where I have another problem with prophets that claim more than there is.

 

[Polaris]

My problem is how do you verify or quantify this "true" revelation?

Now that's the $64,000 question. If we could difinitively verify "true" revelation this forum wouldn't exist and the one true religion would shine through without much effort on any individual's part. I believe God has never intended his truths to be proven in such a way. That would diminish the role of faith and personal effort on our part to find the truth.

The bible is all written by man, as it the Qur'an and other sacred scriptures. Only some parts of scripture in the Bible are revelations, in which "God" speak to the prophets, but the rest are view from the human perspective in their relationship with God. You are forgetting that what's in the bible is recording of very human events, more so than just some prophecies from divine sources.

But with the Qur'an and Joseph Smith, it would seemed that their entire records are based on "revelations" that can't be verify. Smith's and Muhammad's lives can be verify historically, but not for what they have written to "revealed truth" cannot be substantiated beyond accept them as simple faith.

True, scripture in general contains recorded human events. But what sets scripture apart from other writings is that it also contains divine truths that have been conveyed to individuals that God has chosen as his mouthpiece for man -- his prophets. Again, you're right, in general, revelations cannot be verified... at least through some scientific experiment or historical finding.

Even for the Ten Commandments, there are no where in the bible that state that it was composed or written by God. Everything was clearly recorded from a human perspective, even the prophecies are associated with the biblical prophets. But JS and Muhammad claim differently, and there where I have another problem with prophets that claim more than there is.

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Several prophets, and Christ himself often claimed to speak with authority from God. That's what a prophet is, one who speaks with authority from God and is inspired by the same. That's what Noah did, that's what Moses did, that's what Christ did, and that's what Joseph Smith did, and that's what all prophets do.

The question is... was Moses who he claimed to be, was Christ who he claimed to be, and was Joseph Smith who he claimed to be? There's no way to difinitively prove one way or the other. All we're left with is records of what they taught and a legacy of what they helped to establish. Those are the fruits by which we can know the truth, but again, not by scientific means but by something more personal that requires sincere searching on our part.

 

[dan]

Do you ever question why that we don't have anything that are verifiable in regarding to religion?

I do not. I used to, like when a bunch of people started talking about how DNA conclusively proves the Book of Mormon to be false, but two years later the same scientists revealed further discoveries that show the Book of Mormon actually fills in the gaps the rest of the world never knew existed. I had to have great faith to just ignore the arguments, but when I did the evidence popped up to substantiate my faith in the end. As far as verifying other stuff, I've decided science can never prove God does or does not exist, so why bother?

 

[gnostic]

Now that's the $64,000 question.

Well, I could use $64,000 right now, but I doubt there will be answers to such questions.

The thing is, I have little trust in faith. I can only rely on so faith, before it would fall apart from me. I rather rely on experiences (what I can see, hear and feel), reasoning and deeds.

Sure, my reasoning may be wrong at certain stages, or I had bad experience, but that's part of life. Having faith on salvation, that there is an afterlife, don't really have any substances in this reality, now. To me, an afterlife may be comforting thought, but as it stand, right now, it is just wishful thinking, and I can't devote my time on such thinking.

 

[gnostic]

I do not. I used to, like when a bunch of people started talking about how DNA conclusively proves the Book of Mormon to be false, but two years later the same scientists revealed further discoveries that show the Book of Mormon actually fills in the gaps the rest of the world never knew existed.

DNA? What are you talking about, Dan? *scratching my temple*

DNA can't prove the Book of Mormon to be true or false. The only way you can get DNA, if you have some body parts of Joseph Smith to do a DNA on. But that would not prove anything that "this is Joseph Smith".

You don't even have the gold plates, which JS did his translation from, so there are no possible way for the gold plates linking to JS, through DNA.

The only way to prove the Book of Mormon to be true, if a genuine gold plates containing the texts, which Smith had translated from surfaces today, and that we can compare the plates with Joseph's BoM. And that would require scholarship, not DNA.

I'm sorry, Dan, :sorry1: but I can't see what you are getting at.

 

[Bishka]

We aren't talking about the DNA of Joseph Smith gnostic....

 

[gnostic]

But what is Dan talking about on the DNA of the Book of Mormon?

I am confused by his post, Becky. What is he talking about?

 

[Bishka]

But what is Dan talking about on the DNA of the Book of Mormon?

I am confused by his post, Becky. What is he talking about?

The DNA of what people consider to be the Laminites and Nephites.

 

[gnostic]

I'm afraid that in this case, there are no DNA links between the Israelites and those of the Laminites and Nephites.

There are even no links, literacy wise, too. There should have been recognisable Hebrew inscriptions in the Central and South America, where civilisations flourished, but there are no such on any ancient site that shows Hebrew alphabets.

The Olmec, eb://gateway/g?gtype=nav_index&nav_name=index/58/76/69.htmlTeotihuacan and Mayan civilisations existed of the reported last exodus out of Israel to Jesus' time, and yet they used hieroglphic writings instead of Hebrew alphabets.

Religion-wise, the all evidences showed that every Meso-American and Andean civilisations have been polytheistic. There are no evidences of monotheistic religion had exist in the New World.

 

[gnostic]

I'm sorry, but I'm getting sidetracked from the main topic of this thread. The Book of Mormon and DNS would be different topics to this one.

It was about Joseph Smith's inspired version on the Bible, but it seemed to have run its course.

I would like to thank everyone's involvements, both Mormons and non-Mormons, for clearing up my confusion over the LDS's bible. :clap