Joseph Smith, Prophecy and the Baha`i Faith

[Popeyesays]

I want to put these here because I don't want to debate themj, merely make folks aware of the Baha`i link with Joseph Smith.

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/mormon.htm
http://bahaitext.info/btxt.asp?buk=js&tgt=60:1+42&wds=xd
http://www.geocities.com/shoghiinstitute/temples.txt
from a message board:
"Ahimsa

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Senior Member
Join Date: September 4, 2004
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Re: Prophecies of Joseph Smith
I don't know what Brigham Young exactly said, but if he said what you said he said about the Civil War, then he was right. The Civil War did not free the slaves. It took an amendment of the Constitution to do that. Even the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in Confederate-held areas, not slaves held in Union territory.

And even then, after Reconstruction, the descedants of the slaves suffered from their voting and other civil rights being taken away, from 1880s to 1910s, by the system of segregation and intimidation known as "Jim Crow". You could even argue that the slaves were not really freed until the Civil Rights movement, nearly a hundred years after the Civil War." http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=44765

Regards,
Scott

As far as Joseph Smith being alive at the time of the Second Coming, from a traditional Christian stand-point that might be false. But the Seventh-Day Adventists argue that Jesus did begin the process of making His second coming sometime in 1844, the same year Smith died. So perhaps Smith really meant that he would be alive when the second coming would be initiated.

And then you have the Baha'is, who believe that a prophet named "The Bab" announced his public ministry in May 1844, and predicted the appearance of a new, more powerful messenger of God, who would be essentially the second coming of Jesus. And Baha'is believe that Baha'ullah (who joined the community surrounding the Bab in 1844) is that messenger.

So perhaps Smith was intuiting that something was going to happen in the spiritual world, but didn't know exactly what that would be. That seems to me to be more likely than the idea that Smith was an outright fraud.
__________________
"A Unitarian is an atheist with kids."

 

[SoyLeche]

If you are refering to the statement about Joseph Smith being alive at the second coming that i think you are, you didn't read far enough. The statement says something to the effect that if he were to live to be 85 (I think) then he would see the Lord. He said himself that this may not mean that the second coming would be then. Also, he didn't live to be 85, so, logically, the statement is true.

 

[Katzpur]

Re: Prophecies of Joseph Smith
I don't know what Brigham Young exactly said, but if he said what you said he said about the Civil War, then he was right. The Civil War did not free the slaves. It took an amendment of the Constitution to do that. Even the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in Confederate-held areas, not slaves held in Union territory.

And even then, after Reconstruction, the descedants of the slaves suffered from their voting and other civil rights being taken away, from 1880s to 1910s, by the system of segregation and intimidation known as "Jim Crow". You could even argue that the slaves were not really freed until the Civil Rights movement, nearly a hundred years after the Civil War." http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=44765

Actually, I'm not aware that Joseph Smith ever actually prophesied that the Civil War would free the slaves. In December of 1832, he made the following statement (which has since been canonized by the Church):

Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called..."

As far as Joseph Smith being alive at the time of the Second Coming, from a traditional Christian stand-point that might be false. But the Seventh-Day Adventists argue that Jesus did begin the process of making His second coming sometime in 1844, the same year Smith died. So perhaps Smith really meant that he would be alive when the second coming would be initiated.

We don't believe that Christ's Second Coming began in 1844, but even if it had, Joseph did not actually state that he would be alive at the second coming. One of his comments has been interpreted to mean that he thought he would be, but generally speaking, people who point out that it didn't come to pass ignore the rest of Joseph's comments on the subject. I can do some research on the subject if you'd like and see if I can find and post the particulars.

So perhaps Smith was intuiting that something was going to happen in the spiritual world, but didn't know exactly what that would be. That seems to me to be more likely than the idea that Smith was an outright fraud.

See why I like the Baha'is? They tend to be more open-minded than a lot of Christians.
__________________

"A Unitarian is an atheist with kids."

I LOVE the signature!

 

[jonny]

Thanks for those links. I had heard something about a connection between the Baha'i and the Mormon faiths. I'll have to read through those.

 

[joeboonda]

I was reading a sermon Baha'u'llah gave back in the early 1900's of man evolving into a more peaceful loving religious society that would do away with war and evil and some such and such, been a while. I recall that soon after that WWI broke out, then WWII, that in the 1900's more ppl died than in all of history put together, and thot, hmm, don't know about that guy. Think I will stick with Jesus and the Bible. I very sleepy, probably should shut up now, lol.

 

[jonny]

I was reading a sermon Baha'u'llah gave back in the early 1900's of man evolving into a more peaceful loving religious society that would do away with war and evil and some such and such, been a while. I recall that soon after that WWI broke out, then WWII, that in the 1900's more ppl died than in all of history put together, and thot, hmm, don't know about that guy. Think I will stick with Jesus and the Bible. I very sleepy, probably should shut up now, lol.

Sticking with Jesus and the Bible will probably get you a lot further than browing websites that do nothing other than attack faiths. :sarcastic

Sleep good.

 

[joeboonda]

Listen, you believe your church to be the one true church, by believing so, you attack other faiths without realizing it. As a Christian, believing Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by him, I am an offense to all other religions too. Its just what it is. I study CHRISTIAN websites, and I cannot help that every Christian website I come across teaches that Mormonism is a false religion. I know you are trying to rescue me from my 'burning building' and I am just doing the same, I am not trying to 'attack' you or your religion. If you have something against mainstream Christianity, then say it, I don't take it as an attack, I welcome it so I can study and see where the error lies. Relax, man, I love you, and hope the best for us all. I know I am not perfect, and am a lousy debater, and not good with computers, but I am trying to present my views and beliefs as nice as I can. Lets be nice to each other, eh? All this dialogue that I am just anti-Mormon, or attacking other religions is really not nice. My beliefs are just as valid as anyone elses here, and we all have the right to express them, so chill out!

 

[Popeyesays]

I was reading a sermon Baha'u'llah gave back in the early 1900's of man evolving into a more peaceful loving religious society that would do away with war and evil and some such and such, been a while. I recall that soon after that WWI broke out, then WWII, that in the 1900's more ppl died than in all of history put together, and thot, hmm, don't know about that guy. Think I will stick with Jesus and the Bible. I very sleepy, probably should shut up now, lol.

That was Abdu'l Baha, not Baha`u'llah. Abdu'l Baha was the appointed authority after Baha`u'llah's passing in 1892. He was named Interpreter, and Exemplar of the Faith and Center of the Covenant.

Abdu'l Baha lived through World War I and from about 1910 warned the world of its approach. After the war was over, he was grateful for peace but warned that another war would come - even more catastrophic to the world.

Baha`i's believe this is the dawn of an age of peace for mankind, but in order to acheive that we must give up war ourselves.

Baha`u'llah says this:
"O kings of the earth! We see you increasing every year your expenditures, and laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is wholly and grossly unjust. Fear the sighs and tears of this wronged One, and lay not excessive burdens on your peoples. Do not rob them to rear palaces for yourselves; nay rather choose for them that which ye choose for yourselves. Thus We unfold to your eyes 254 that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!
Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.
O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.
Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 253)

and this:

"The word of God which the Supreme Pen hath recorded on the ninth leaf of the Most Exalted Paradise is this: In all matters moderation* is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil. Consider the civilization of the West, how it hath agitated and alarmed the peoples of the world. An infernal engine hath been devised, and hath proved so cruel a weapon of destruction that its like none hath ever witnessed or heard. The purging of such deeply-rooted and overwhelming corruptions cannot be effected unless the peoples of the world unite in pursuit of one common aim and embrace one universal faith. Incline your ears unto the Call of this Wronged One and adhere firmly to the Lesser Peace.
Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal. Great God! We have observed an amazing thing. Lightning or a force similar to it is controlled by an operator and moveth at his command. Immeasurably exalted is the Lord of Power Who hath laid bare that which He purposed through the potency of His weighty and invincible command."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

In this use, "moderation" means moderating one's behavior by moral justice.
A compelling prediction of the use of nuclear weapons, is it not?


Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Listen, you believe your church to be the one true church, by believing so, you attack other faiths without realizing it. As a Christian, believing Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by him, I am an offense to all other religions too. Its just what it is. I study CHRISTIAN websites, and I cannot help that every Christian website I come across teaches that Mormonism is a false religion. I know you are trying to rescue me from my 'burning building' and I am just doing the same, I am not trying to 'attack' you or your religion. If you have something against mainstream Christianity, then say it, I don't take it as an attack, I welcome it so I can study and see where the error lies. Relax, man, I love you, and hope the best for us all. I know I am not perfect, and am a lousy debater, and not good with computers, but I am trying to present my views and beliefs as nice as I can. Lets be nice to each other, eh? All this dialogue that I am just anti-Mormon, or attacking other religions is really not nice. My beliefs are just as valid as anyone elses here, and we all have the right to express them, so chill out!

Dear Joe,

I put this here on a DISCUSSION board so no one would go to extremes to denounce what was presented - just discuss it.

Do you KNOW what discuss means??? In case you do not:
Main Entry: dis·cuss javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?discus02.wav=discuss')
Pronunciation: di-'sk&s
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin discussus, past participle of discutere to disperse, from dis- apart + quatere to shake -- more at [size=-1]DIS-[/size], [size=-1]QUASH[/size]
1 obsolete : [size=-1]DISPEL[/size]
2 a : to investigate by reasoning or argument b : to present in detail for examination or consideration <discussed plans for the party> c : to talk about
3 obsolete : [size=-1]DECLARE[/size]
- dis·cuss·able or dis·cuss·ible javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?discus03.wav=discussible') /-'sk&-s&-b&l/ adjective
- dis·cuss·er noun
synonyms [size=-1]DISCUSS[/size], [size=-1]ARGUE[/size], [size=-1]DEBATE [/size]mean to discourse about in order to reach conclusions or to convince. [size=-1]DISCUSS [/size]implies a sifting of possibilities especially by presenting considerations pro and con <discussed the need for a new highway>. [size=-1]ARGUE [/size]implies the offering of reasons or evidence in support of convictions already held <argued that the project would be too costly>. [size=-1]DEBATE [/size]suggests formal or public argument between opposing parties <debated the merits of the amendment>; it may also apply to deliberation with oneself <I'm debating whether I should go>.

 

[joeboonda]

That was Abdu'l Baha, not Baha`u'llah. Abdu'l Baha was the appointed authority after Baha`u'llah's passing in 1892. He was named Interpreter, and Exemplar of the Faith and Center of the Covenant.

Abdu'l Baha lived through World War I and from about 1910 warned the world of its approach. After the war was over, he was grateful for peace but warned that another war would come - even more catastrophic to the world.

Baha`i's believe this is the dawn of an age of peace for mankind, but in order to acheive that we must give up war ourselves.

Baha`u'llah says this:
"O kings of the earth! We see you increasing every year your expenditures, and laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is wholly and grossly unjust. Fear the sighs and tears of this wronged One, and lay not excessive burdens on your peoples. Do not rob them to rear palaces for yourselves; nay rather choose for them that which ye choose for yourselves. Thus We unfold to your eyes 254 that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!
Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.
O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.
Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 253)

and this:

"The word of God which the Supreme Pen hath recorded on the ninth leaf of the Most Exalted Paradise is this: In all matters moderation* is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil. Consider the civilization of the West, how it hath agitated and alarmed the peoples of the world. An infernal engine hath been devised, and hath proved so cruel a weapon of destruction that its like none hath ever witnessed or heard. The purging of such deeply-rooted and overwhelming corruptions cannot be effected unless the peoples of the world unite in pursuit of one common aim and embrace one universal faith. Incline your ears unto the Call of this Wronged One and adhere firmly to the Lesser Peace.
Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal. Great God! We have observed an amazing thing. Lightning or a force similar to it is controlled by an operator and moveth at his command. Immeasurably exalted is the Lord of Power Who hath laid bare that which He purposed through the potency of His weighty and invincible command."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

In this use, "moderation" means moderating one's behavior by moral justice.
A compelling prediction of the use of nuclear weapons, is it not?


Regards,
Scott

yeah that was his name. John spoke of such catastrophic things in revelation.

I dont know that we will ever have utopia til Christ comes,

Jeremiah 17:9 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain





9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I believe this verse is true of mankind, only with Christ in our heart can we change, but most ppl do not accept Him, so I think we are heading to the Great Tribulation soon enough. As a pre-trib rapture man, I plan on missing out on all that 'fun'.

 

[joeboonda]

Dear Joe,

I put this here on a DISCUSSION board so no one would go to extremes to denounce what was presented - just discuss it.

Do you KNOW what discuss means??? In case you do not:
Main Entry: dis·cuss
Pronunciation: di-'sk&s
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin discussus, past participle of discutere to disperse, from dis- apart + quatere to shake -- more at [size=-1]DIS-[/size], [size=-1]QUASH[/size]
1 obsolete : [size=-1]DISPEL[/size]
2 a : to investigate by reasoning or argument b : to present in detail for examination or consideration <discussed plans for the party> c : to talk about
3 obsolete : [size=-1]DECLARE[/size]
- dis·cuss·able or dis·cuss·ible /-'sk&-s&-b&l/ adjective
- dis·cuss·er noun
synonyms [size=-1]DISCUSS[/size], [size=-1]ARGUE[/size], [size=-1]DEBATE [/size]mean to discourse about in order to reach conclusions or to convince. [size=-1]DISCUSS [/size]implies a sifting of possibilities especially by presenting considerations pro and con <discussed the need for a new highway>. [size=-1]ARGUE [/size]implies the offering of reasons or evidence in support of convictions already held <argued that the project would be too costly>. [size=-1]DEBATE [/size]suggests formal or public argument between opposing parties <debated the merits of the amendment>; it may also apply to deliberation with oneself <I'm debating whether I should go>.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, discuss, debate, gotcha. You just do not realize that these folks are continously insulting me everywhere I turn, and I get sick of it. I present them with facts, and they call me an anti-mormon, attacker of their faith, and make other remarks about my ineptitude at debating and all, and I get tired of it. I love everyone, and they continue to be completely rude to me, so whatever. I will do my best to be nice, but it is hard sometimes.

 

[Popeyesays]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, discuss, debate, gotcha. You just do not realize that these folks are continously insulting me everywhere I turn, and I get sick of it. I present them with facts, and they call me an anti-mormon, attacker of their faith, and make other remarks about my ineptitude at debating and all, and I get tired of it. I love everyone, and they continue to be completely rude to me, so whatever. I will do my best to be nice, but it is hard sometimes.

In my faith we have no priesthood to guide us. We have only our own understanding and interpretation of what the Prophet says. Our authority is in elected bodies whose members have no authority themselves, but only in conclave.

When in conclave it is important to NOT make such discussion adversarial. We pursue the truth and the truth can only be illumined the sparks of open discussion and understanding.
We "consult" we don't advocate or argue. When an idea is given to the deliberations of consultation each and every person must be willing to divorce his own idea from himself and give it to the group to determine where the truth lies.

If you don't want to get upset, present an idea selflessly then the self is not threatened.
A frequen prayer of Abdu'l Baha, which I use when the voice of my own self and passion
would seduce me.
"O God, my God! Shield Thy trusted servants from the evils of self and passion, protect them with the watchful eye of thy loving-kindness from all rancor, hate and envy, shelter them in the impregnable stronghold of Thy care and, safe from the darts of doubtfulness, make them the manifestations of Thy glorious signs, illumine their faces with the effulgent rays shed from the Dayspring of Thy divine unity, gladden their hearts with the verses revealed from Thy holy kingdom, strengthen their loins by Thine all-swaying power that cometh from Thy realm of glory. Thou art the All-Bountiful, the Protector, the Almighty, the Gracious."
- 'Abdu'l-Bahá
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 134)

 

[joeboonda]

Yeah, I like that, see, I don't really get upset when someone disagrees with my religion or doctrine, but I find that others get very upset here when I question theirs, and its just not cool. Anyway, that is a nice prayer. Thanks.

 

[jonny]

Based on those websites, the Baha'i seem to give some credance to Joseph Smith's prophesies and see themselves as fulfillment of many of these prophesies.

Did I understand this correctly?

 

[Popeyesays]

Based on those websites, the Baha'i seem to give some credance to Joseph Smith's prophesies and see themselves as fulfilment of many of these prophesies.

Did I understand this correctly?

The Bab did not mention Joseph Smith. Baha`u'llah did not mention Joseph Smith. Abdu'l Baha does not mention Joseph Smith. Shoghi EWffendi does not mention Joseph Smith. So looking at Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Bab or Baha`u'llah cannot be proven one way or another within the Baha`i Faith. It is conjecture, but possible. In the same breath it is conjecture but cannot be proven.

So one Baha`i may say yes, and another say no; but no Baha`i can attempt to make it official in either direction. If someone were to take up the cause of Joseph Smith being a prophet of the Bab and insisted on his own interpretation being accepted as doctrine, that insistence would be in gross violation of the covenant of the Baha`i Faith which states that only the Prophets and the appointed Center of the Covenant(Abdu'l Baha( and the Guardian of the Faith (Shoghi Effendi) can make authoritative interpretation. There was no successor available to appoint as a second Guardian, so nobody living has the authority to interpret for others.

I hope that clears up what is "officially" okay concerning Joseph Smith and his prophecies from a Baha`i point of view.

Regards,
Scott

 

[jonny]

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[nutshell]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, discuss, debate, gotcha. You just do not realize that these folks are continously insulting me everywhere I turn, and I get sick of it. I present them with facts, and they call me an anti-mormon, attacker of their faith, and make other remarks about my ineptitude at debating and all, and I get tired of it. I love everyone, and they continue to be completely rude to me, so whatever. I will do my best to be nice, but it is hard sometimes.

I've resisted responding to this all day, but after reading other posts in other threads I feel I must comment.

I think it's important to note that "these folks" that Joe refers to above include not only LDS, but posters of various beliefs. It seems most of the people on this forum have recognized the anti-Mormon (yes, I'm using that word...I'm calling a spade a spade) rhetoric that exists in Joe's posts. I'm not aware of anyone calling Joe an anti-Mormon, rather, his posts are being labeled as such, usually because they come for "Chrisitan" websites that seem more interested in destroying others' beliefs through misinformation than teaching their own beliefs. Further, I do not believe members of the LDS faith have been rude to Joe, but I'm sorry if he perceives us as such. We have consistantly demonstrated a willingness to debate the issues, but he frequently ignores our replies and continues to post incorrect information from third-party websites.

 

[arthra]

Historically I think it's curious that Joseph Smith was killed by a mob on June27th 1844 a few weeks after the Bab's declaration on May 23rd 1844... but I'm unsure what it means.

I'd be reluctant to call Joseph Smith an "outright fraud" though... In our view he was considered a "seer" and someone who had intimations and there are many commendable things about Mormons that we Baha'is respect.

There are some Mormons though who became Baha'i and still accepted the Book of Mormon to a degree and so for them I think there is more of an emphasis on how these prophecies could be fulfilled, but it's not an article of faith among Baha'is and we don't accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet.

Generally as to prophecy though I think there are those who look at the world's history and see that there has been a qualitive difference between say the twentieth century and the preceding ones...in terms of scientific advances as well as politically. Are we closer today to a world governed by law than we were say seventy years ago... I think so. Note that while there are still wars they are generally fairly limited in scope and don't involve vast territories.

- Art

 

[Muhhamad Abdul Salam]

I mean no offense but I tried to read the Book of Mormon and it made no sence. As far as I could tell it had no message and it tries to take the place of the Bible.