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Featured John Doe believes in god and you don't. Why do you think he is wrong and you are right?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Having faith and believing in a super natural god is above natural and science. God is supposed to be supernatural, something science doesn't study or understand. So technically there can be no scientific evidence for a god.
    If Joe believes in god why do you feel he is wrong and you are right by not believing?
    It actually seems to offend some that Joe believes in god. Why is that?
    Why do humans fight about what they believe?
    Isn't what they believe a personal choice?
     
    #1 We Never Know, Apr 17, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Yes. Technically, there can be no real evidence of anything supernatural. If it were evidenced or understandable it wouldn't be supernatural.
    Faith is unsupported belief, useful, perhaps, as an opiate.
    Who cares what anyone feels? It's what someone thinks that's important. Right and wrong are calculable; not a matter of opinion.
    People admire skill and competence. Incompetence annoys us.
    Insecurity.
    If your ego-identity depends on your being right, any contrary facts are a threat.
    Belief, per se, is a personal choice. The reliability of a belief is not.
     
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  3. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Because he can't point to any evidence, precedent or objective benefit. But, of course, he has a right to be wrong.
    It doesn't offend me. (It would offend me, especially my intelligence, if he thought he could convince me he was right with centuries old arguments I have possibly pondered longer and deeper than him.)
    Because they think that "beliefs inform actions". And religious beliefs have a history of informing very negative actions.
    I don't hold to that belief. Knowledge informs actions. People who are aware that they believe, tend to be very cautious to put that belief into action.
    Of course. And they have every right to their own opinion. They just don't have a right to their own facts or their own laws (or at least, they shouldn't; sadly sometimes they do).
     
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  4. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Such a life is going to be no better or worse than anyone else's weither a belief in God is there or not.

    I would simply regard John Doe as just having an imaginary friend who thinks it can do things that simply are not in the real world.

    Deluded, but mostly harmless provided it dosent make John Doe do things that are harmful.
     
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  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Do you really need a list of reasons or will "lack of evidence do"?

    If joe believes then thats up to joe in the same way my beliefs are up to me. Is joe wrong, according to the evidence, yes he is but he is still entitled to his beliefs

    Can't say joes beliefs offends me however if joe goes around killing people for his beliefs then that offends me as does trying to impose his beliefs on me

    Why fight? Without it this forum would be pretty boring. But i think you will find that fighting for religious belief tends to be some religious group trying to impose their belief on others. I fight when someone tries that on me.

    Personal choice, yes... public ... see above paragraph
     
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  6. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    This may or may not be true, for example we might be able to measure some parameters that could only come from God or be affected by any God, but I'm not that interested so haven't bothered to even inspect such. One might say very much the same for anything else that science might not be able to explain - and which might not exist either.
    For the same reasons why many of us have different beliefs about many things, in that our understanding, knowledge, and experiences vary - often related to how much we have researched and/or abilities to process such. For example, many will have imbibed lots of religious material but can they say that they have imbibed an equal amount of scientific material so as to balance such? Many apparently have not given their poor knowledge of science. Such that no amount of religious material will suffice, given that it mostly cannot be verified as to veracity, and especially so when it contradicts science - like the beliefs of any Young Earth Creationists. One of the reasons why I tend not to believe in any God is because all the religious materials just seem to stem from humans, and can be accounted for without coming from any divine source.
    I think you are mistaken here. I doubt most non-believers are offended by whatever religious beliefs people hold - as long as such beliefs do not harm others - unfortunately so many of such beliefs do.
    See previous answer.
    Everything is mostly a personal choice - apart from the fact that most people get their religious beliefs from their parents and/or culture. How is that a choice for the children involved?
     
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  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Not when John Doe is passing laws to force his beliefs onto others.
     
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  8. Erebus

    Erebus Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot to unpack here but I'll do my best. I think it's worth giving a brief overview of my views on God before I start answering your questions. For starters, I don't believe in God with a capital G as to me that implies an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. I have less of a problem with the idea of Yahweh as a sky deity in a polytheistic pantheon but that isn't generally how believers in God view him. Same thing with a more metaphorical view of God. I'll also say that I don't definitively claim that God does not exist and am open to the possibility of being wrong.

    Okay, with that out of the way, I'll try to answer your questions.


    If Joe believes God is omnibenevolent then I would say that the problem of evil is a good reason for me to not believe. If I'm able to come up with ideas on how to reduce suffering without interfering with free will, an omnipotent, omniscient being should have no problems whatsoever.

    If Joe doesn't believe God is omnibenevolent then I tend towards a more pragmatic attitude. I haven't come across anything that would convince me of God's existence, which an omnipotent being could easily provide if he truly wanted me to believe in him. Add to this the rules and restrictions scriptures tend to place on how we should live (many of which I have moral objections towards) and it seems that just taking his existence on faith isn't worth it.

    Finally, God is just one of many, many deities mankind has worshipped over the millennia. I haven't found a compelling reason why I should view this particular concept to be the right one and all others to be false.

    Just to note that these are reasons for me to not believe. As far as Joe's beliefs are concerned, I'll quote the venerable Granny Weatherwax, 'It's not my place to tell 'em what to believe, if they act decent.'


    That depends on the individual. Some people may have been hurt by believers, others might have serious moral objections to certain beliefs. When it comes to taking offence at a believer who just gets on with their own thing and doesn't hurt anybody, I suspect that offence is rooted in something of a superiority complex.

    Again, there's no single answer to that. It can be because somebody can't abide the thought of others holding incorrect beliefs. It can be because they sincerely believe that they're fighting to save their opponent's soul. It can be because they perceive others as a threat. The list goes on.


    We don't usually simply choose to believe something. It tends to be a result of an incalculably vast number of environmental factors coupled with a person's general nature. While it's controversial, I've heard suggestions that some people may be naturally inclined towards theism or atheism. I personally suspect that there's some truth in that.
     
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  9. passerby

    passerby Member

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    From a human civilisation perspective most people have and still, believe in a God of some sort. They may or may not be part of some organised ancient religion, they may be just seekers after some hidden truth in the human experience that lies beyond science. True belief in a Deity that is manifested without any doubts and without recourse to political or cultural support is extremely rare. As is total atheism (which also requires a degree of fanaticism in seeking to impose its own values) which can also be propped up by political and cultural norms, as in Communist regimes.
    If there is any truth to be found it is that believing in something that requires only a personal reflection on what the hell we are actually doing here, is far more prevalent in us than accepting life means nothing other than being a 'good' person. This is why you experience so many atheists contributing to forums such as this.
     
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  10. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Dear @Valjean

    I wasn’t going to comment on this thread, but I read your reflections and thought I’d step in a little.

    What if you had been wrong in what you thought is meant by “God” and science one day was able to explain to you what God really is (in scientific language), in a way that made other spiritual concepts make perfect sense too?

    Perhaps you think that impossible, but there are those with a scientific background who say that it’s not unlikely that so should occur - possibly even in our own life-time.

    After all, the practical importance of faith lays in the impact that it has on someone’s values, priorities and actions; not in the words that are used to depict them.

    If a scientific explanation to what is meant by the word “God”, results in a change of perspective (among atheist) that leads them to live their lives by the same principles as those who believe in God, had people of faith been “wrong” or “right” in the end? Could it have been you who misunderstood the concept of “God” and therefore did not believe...? Just a thought really.


    I’m guessing you mean scientifically...? Otherwise, what people feel is rather important. Understanding that is called empathy and has great impact on how one lives one’s life.

    What’s more: one day, science may even show that it is emotions that lay at the actual core of how our physical world evolves.

    Also: above you use the terms “right” and “wrong” but I’m assuming that what you really mean is “true” and “false”, as “right” and “wrong” are conclusions and conclusions are interpretations of facts, not facts per se.

    Science always distinguishes between results (1+1=2) and conclusions (good/bad/right/wrong). If you mess them up in the chapters of a dissertation, you’ll have to redo for it to pass.


    Admiration is one thing - it happens.
    As for the latter, to someone who admires rationality and logic so much; is that not just a great waste of valuable energy? Perhaps “people” should consider reevaluating their priorities here...


    And what a pain it must be to be that guy.


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
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  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There is evidence of the supernatural and for Jesus but many people want to not believe it and explain it away and even turn it into something that is understandable so they can say it is not supernatural.
    The only reason my beliefs are considered to be opinion is because of all the other BS beliefs around.
     
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  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Rubbish.
     
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  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    Huh?

    Where's the evidence for the supernatural?

    How does jesus' historical existence prove anything supernatural?

    Take witnesses. How do you question the witnesses of the resurrection?

    In any, say, criminal case police interview all witnesses to see that their claims are validated if they all saw the same event. How do we do that with the apostles?
     
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  14. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Is it actually? Do we consciously choose what we think is true, certain, or even just plausible?

    It very much seems to be like the opposite may be true - that we are raised, or absorb, certain beliefs without consciously choosing, or sometimes without even knowing why or for what purpose; and then these beliefs we have absorbed inform what choices we consider viable or reasonable.
     
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  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    What's the evidence? An old book? The belief in an invisible friend with superpowers?
     
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  16. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Well for one thing if John Doe knew what he was doing he wouldn't keep winding up in the morgue.
     
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  17. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    So basically one see themselves right and others wrong, whether they believe or not, based upon personal choices because it sure isn't based on evidence being a god cannot be shown to exist or not exist by faith or science. .
     
  18. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with that logic. I don't see how anything can exist and not be within the scope of scientific method. There can be (and are) things that are outside the practical ability of humans to apply scientific method to but that's not the same thing.

    You assume I feel he's wrong. I don't consider belief to be a conscious choice and don't think we can directly change it so I don't see the act of believing (anything) to be wrong in itself.

    When people start making specific assertions and declarations about the nature of whatever god or gods they believe exist can be a different matter and for that you said it yourself (albeit not for the same reason I say); there is no evidence.

    I've no idea, you'd have to ask them. That said, I suspect most of the offense and objection won't be about what other people believe (after all, how would we know) but about what people say and do as a consequence of their beliefs, especially where those words and actions impact other people.

    I'm not convinced we do, it's just another excuse to fight for power and resources.
     
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  19. passerby

    passerby Member

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    Yes
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

    Through history many people, often millions at a time, have believed in many different sorts of gods and incorporeal beings -- without real evidence.

    Many have believed in dragons moving underground causing earthquakes. Without evidence people make up all sorts of stories to "explain" things. What's annoying is that many cling to their cultural folklore even after the real, natural causes for X, Y, or Z are found and demonstrated. Are people just frightened by change or novelty? Do the real facts seem too complicated?

    Reasonable people believe the evidence -- testable, repeatable, observable evidence. Reasonable people withhold belief in things unevidenced. Reasonable people can distinguish real evidence from opinion, feelings or folklore.
     
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