1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

John 5:37 contradiction, or not...

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Feb 10, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    John 5:37

    Specifically any verse that proposes a never encountered G-d, directly contradicts Scripture, is even abstractly, or by any interpretation false, does this verse actually say this?
     
    #1 Disciple of Jesus, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  2. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    Considering the audience, Jesus was talking to specific people. There isn't an indication that these people actually followed the religion that Jesus teaches, I call this 'the religion of Jesus'. In this sense, really, the only thing that makes sense here, this statement makes sense.

    There is an absolute contradiction if read as a general statement, regarding G-d.
     
  3. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,251
    Ratings:
    +1,110
    What do you believe to be the contradiction?
     
  4. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    Biblically? G-d is noted with form, even described, in Scripture. Would not 'that Deity', be the Abba?


    As a 'general statement' about G-d, this sequence of verses would literally contradict itself.
     
    #4 Disciple of Jesus, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  5. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,251
    Ratings:
    +1,110

    John 5:37 says ... And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

    This verse is saying that those Jesus was speaking to had neither heard the voice of the Father, nor seen the Father or His form at anytime.

    Do you agree with that, it is the Father no one had seen or heard?
     
  6. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    Not as a 'general statement', no. If this is specifically referring to those who Jesus is talking to, then, sure, it could be a non-contradictory statement.
     
  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,251
    Ratings:
    +1,110
    I am of the opinion that all the interactions in the OT between God and the people of Israel were occurring with the Son of God, therefore Jesus's words would be no contradiction because no one had actually seen or heard the Father God, but the Son, Himself.
     
  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    That's fine, that could correlate to Scripture. Now, do you believe that the Abba, literally cannot be perceived, necessarily, or, always formless?
     
  9. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,251
    Ratings:
    +1,110
    Yes, I'd say that I believe Abba Father is Spirit and cannot be seen at least by physical human eyes. The eternal realm may be different I imagine.
     
  10. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Christian
    Where's the contradiction? It says the same thing in John 1:18-

    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    No one has seen God the Father at any time. Where's the contradiction?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    Let's see. There was the burning bush incident..
     
  12. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    It's a problem if one has One God, and that God, or Lord, is the 'Biblical God', and therefore many times where God was encountered, talked to, so forth.

    So, it varies by belief, it seems.

    That would be, many verses, in the Old Testament. Do you want a list of these verses?
     
  13. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,209
    Ratings:
    +1,579
    If one believes that there is more than one deity, or entity, in the Bible, since it's a collection of texts, still have to delineate that, then.
     
  14. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Christian
    No. It's only a problem if you think only one being is God. The Bible mentions 3 who are called God. They all share the one divine nature. Therefore while one within the Godhead can't be seen, another can. No contradiction.
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    6,054
    Ratings:
    +2,484
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    No one has seen God, not even Jesus the Son or Baha'u'llah the Father.

    There is no contradiction in any scripture, unless man has interpreted a contradiction.

    These passages are now fully reconciled.

    God is unknowable in Essence and knowable only in Attributes through all of God's Mesengers.

    There are many levels of comprehension with this topic.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Christian
    According to Scripture, you're wrong. The Bible clearly says men have seen God:

    Isaiah 6:1
    In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

    Isaiah 6:5
    Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

    Genesis 16:13
    Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

    Genesis 32:30
    So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

    Exodus 24:11
    Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
     
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    6,054
    Ratings:
    +2,484
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It is clear a metephor of seeing God is given.

    It could be that all are but a reference to seeing God in attribures, reflected in the Messengers.

    The Lord of Hosts in Isaiah 6:5 is Baha'u'llah, thus that confirms a different view is needed. All that have had visions could have been seeing the Mesengers in their Spiritual Form. Again this is not seeing God in Essence only Attribites.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    Specific people meaning Jews?
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    The prophet Isaiah lived in the eighth and early seventh centuries BC. He was from Jerusalem and began his ministry in 740 BC, the year of King Uzziah’s death.

    You know there were several authors who wrote 1st 2nd Isaiah and a third author who wrote the final chapters.
     
  20. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Christian
    Wrong again. God speaking, Numbers 12:8-

    With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
     
Loading...