John 3:16

[Buttons*]

In another thread "Children of Adulters" Michel brought up a topic about children dying before baptism. Interestingly enough (for me at least) on Friday in my Christian Humanities class we talked about that exact subject! So I thought i'd bring it up on here! yay! (this should probably go into discussion instead of debate, but the mods can decide that *shrugs*)

SO yes, if Christians believe that you have to be baptised in order to go to heaven, and a child dies before they can be baptised (be it miscarriges, abortions, complications in birth, undeveloped vital organs, premature birth... which result in death...) does it go to heaven? Catholics, (correct me if im wrong guys) would say that it goes to Limbo. What do yall think about that? WIll a child, if not baptised before death, go to hell? Why do you think what you think about it?

Another tough question is: When is a child accountable for understanding God and accepting Him? I was baptised as a baby, and the school says that it doesnt count because I, myself, never asked God into my heart. What do you think? When can a child fully understand the concept of God, and choose to accept Him? Is there a cut off age when children are accountable in the eyes of God for salvation?

Also, for those who will never understand the concept of God, such as the mentally challanged, does God grant mercy upon them if they cannot grasp the concept themselves?

 

[Bishka]

In another thread "Children of Adulters" Michel brought up a topic about children dying before baptism. Interestingly enough (for me at least) on Friday in my Christian Humanities class we talked about that exact subject! So I thought i'd bring it up on here! yay! (this should probably go into discussion instead of debate, but the mods can decide that *shrugs*)

SO yes, if Christians believe that you have to be baptised in order to go to heaven, and a child dies before they can be baptised (be it miscarriges, abortions, complications in birth, undeveloped vital organs, premature birth... which result in death...) does it go to heaven? Catholics, (correct me if im wrong guys) would say that it goes to Limbo. What do yall think about that? WIll a child, if not baptised before death, go to hell? Why do you think what you think about it?

Another tough question is: When is a child accountable for understanding God and accepting Him? I was baptised as a baby, and the school says that it doesnt count because I, myself, never asked God into my heart. What do you think? When can a child fully understand the concept of God, and choose to accept Him? Is there a cut off age when children are accountable in the eyes of God for salvation?

Also, for those who will never understand the concept of God, such as the mentally challanged, does God grant mercy upon them if they cannot grasp the concept themselves?

Well, I don't know if you know about the LDS thoughts on this, but any child under the age of 8 is automatically saved, no matter what.

After that if someone, anyone, even a child 8 and over has died, we do proxy baptisms so the child has a chance, so in the LDS faith, everyone has a chance, it's just up to them when they are dead if they accept it or not.

 

[jonny]

Too bad more Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon... It would clear everything up.

Moroni 8:11-12

"And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!"

It goes on to say that child baptism is a mockery before God and his mercy and calling baptism without repentance putting faith in "dead works." The words are harsh, but it is obviously something that Moroni felt passionate about.

 

[James the Persian]

We certainly don't believe unbaptised infants are damned - they are sinless after all. We also don't believe that unbaptised adults are necessarily damned and there are quite a few saints who never had the opportunity to be baptised. Historically speaking, the Church always accepted baptism in fact, baptism by blood (being martyred before baptism) and baptism by desire (dying before having the opportunity to be baptised whilst desiring it) as valid. An Orthodox catechumen, for instance, who dies before their baptism is still afforded an Orthodox funeral even today, though normally this is forbidden to people not baptised (or chrismated) in the Church.

James

P.S.

Limbo is not Roman Catholic doctrine and it looks as though the idea will soon be dropped altogether. We Orthodox never had such an idea in the first place so, from my point of view, this is a good development.

 

[michel]

We certainly don't believe unbaptised infants are damned - they are sinless after all. We also don't believe that unbaptised adults are necessarily damned and there are quite a few saints who never had the opportunity to be baptised. Historically speaking, the Church always accepted baptism in fact, baptism by blood (being martyred before baptism) and baptism by desire (dying before having the opportunity to be baptised whilst desiring it) as valid. An Orthodox catechumen, for instance, who dies before their baptism is still afforded an Orthodox funeral even today, though normally this is forbidden to people not baptised (or chrismated) in the Church.
P.S.

Limbo is not Roman Catholic doctrine and it looks as though the idea will soon be dropped altogether. We Orthodox never had such an idea in the first place so, from my point of view, this is a good development.

James.

Hehe, you beat me to it James; Hi Gnosis !

I was going to say that when I first started delving into Christianity, I had this dreadful image of babies who had unfortunately died before Baptism going to Hell, which, of course, seeing as the Christian God is one of love, would make no sense whatsoever. There are Christians who believe that Baptism is not even necessary......

There is a very useful article here on Baptism :-Baptism: A Flood of Confusion By: Jeff Miller , Th.M. I think the title alone gives credence to James' post (although that sounds as if James needs credence, which of vourse is rubbish, as he most likely knows more than I will ever learn! ).........
A short abstract (the conclusion of the paper - which is well worth the read)

Few Christian practices are as misunderstood as baptism. And few doctrines are as controversial. Some churches practice infant baptism; others practice believer's baptism. Some teach that baptism is necessary for salvation; others, in an effort to not confuse baptism with salvation, downplay the importance of baptism altogether. Should infants be baptized? Is baptism necessary for salvation? Why do some churches immerse people in water while others pour or sprinkle the water over the head? These and other questions will be answered during this instructional message. We will look at the Bible's teachings on water baptism and how it was practiced by the early church. Furthermore, we will encourage--as the Bible encourages--believers who have not undergone baptism to follow in obedience to our Lord's model.

 

[may]

The God that i worship would never sent anyone to a so called firey hellfire to be tormented ,the God that i worship is a God of Love, why anyone would even want to believe that God would do that ......beats me...... false religious teachers have a lot to answer to God for ,teaching the flocks lies about God ,and what gets me is people get to believing the lies

 

[michel]

The God that i worship would never sent anyone to a so called firey hellfire to be tormented ,the God that i worship is a God of Love, why anyone would even want to believe that God would do that ......beats me...... false religious teachers have a lot to answer to God for ,teaching the flocks lies about God ,and what gets me is people get to believing the lies

Well said!

 

[jeffrey]

I believe that Baptism is more of a ritual then anything else. As James pointed out, you can be 'Saved by proxy', meaning as long as you believe. I believe that a child that does not understand sin will be saved. What age? that depends. A mentally Retarded child might not ever hit that age of reason, such as my brother. He's in his 50's, and still will be saved, for he, in mind, is only 6.

 

[curiouslyminty]

I would say baptism is necessary if you refuse to do it. But God is just enough that if he requires your life before you have the oppertunity, I doubt youll be judged.

And for children, I don't believe they sin until maturity. I think sin is in the will of the person doing it. You can't accidently sin. You have to deliberately perform an act of disobedience (which everyone does)

 

[Bangbang]

So what happens to unborn fetuses,babies that die in accidents or just die young,the retarded, the people on this planet that will never hear the Word.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[michel]

So what happens to unborn fetuses,babies that die in accidents or just die young,the retarded, and most of the people on this planet that will never hear the Word.

They go to heaven; what else do you imagine ? (of course, those who have not heard 'the word' and behave sinfully can expects trouble) , but those who have behaved well will be accepted, red carpet and all.

 

[Bangbang]

They go to heaven; what else do you imagine ? (of course, those who have not heard 'the word' and behave sinfully can expects trouble) , but those who have behaved well will be accepted, red carpet and all.

So whats the point of Missionaries risking their lives preaching if the reward of everlasting life is available to every one. The scriptures say you must go through Jesus by believing in him to recieve the reward.

 

[sushannah]

These are the kinds of problems you run across when you believe that people are inheritly bad. I personally believe people to be inheritly good - created in G-d's image and all. If people are good, why would G-d unnecessarily punish unfortunates such as you mentioned?

 

[michel]

So whats the point of Missionaries risking their lives preaching if the reward of everlasting life is available to every one. The scriptures say you must go through Jesus by believing in him to recieve the reward.

The missionaries are doing a great service to the Church (although Historically it hasn't always worked the way it should) ; they are giving up creature comforts to spread the word of God.

I can't find it, as of now, but I knoe there is a thread about this same problem somewhere on the forum; if I find it, I will reference it.

Edit: I have found the thread, and have meged it with this one; of course the answers you will need to look at are now before your first post BangBang.

 

[Aqualung]

BangBang - read Becky soup's reply.

 

[Bangbang]

Well, I don't know if you know about the LDS thoughts on this, but any child under the age of 8 is automatically saved, no matter what.

After that if someone, anyone, even a child 8 and over has died, we do proxy baptisms so the child has a chance, so in the LDS faith, everyone has a chance, it's just up to them when they are dead if they accept it or not.

So where in the scriptures does it speak about the age of accountablility?

 

[Aqualung]

So where in the scriptures does it speak about the age of accountablility?

A couple of times in the Bible it mentions that little children are blameless; the D&C (I think) is where it actually gives the age.

 

[Bangbang]

A couple of times in the Bible it mentions that little children are blameless; the D&C (I think) is where it actually gives the age.

Where????

 

[Aqualung]

http://scriptures.lds.org/tga/accntage

http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/slvtnltt

 

[Scuba Pete]

Too bad more Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon... It would clear everything up.

Moroni 8:11-12

"And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism.

Sorry Jonny,

I didn't need the Book of Mormon to understand that!

Untill sin occurs, repentence and baptism are not needed.