John 3:13

[Horrorble]

Aramaic., bar(son) enash(mortal) is the equivalent of the hebrew ben(son)-ʼenoh(mortal)sh′(man). as found in Psalm 144:3 which is translated “son of mortal man” ... so there is no issue in translating Daniel 7:13 as 'son of man'.

But alos, the christians have always applied that verse to Jesus and this could also be why it is translated as 'Son of Man'. I dont see any problem with that from either angle though.

I wasn't tryin to say there is a problem with it being translated as son of man, Daniel is called son of man and even Gabriel comes down like a man. Angela sometimes appear like the son of man. But what has Daniel 7:13 got to do with Michael?

it is drawn from the fact that the next verse says 14 "And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin"

It is also this kingdom which will destroy all other earthly kingdoms according to Dan 2:44 and this will mark a time of distress on earth “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite

And he later explains that it is during this time of distress that Michael will stand up Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress

Michael is also referred to as "ONE OF" the chiefly princeS or important angels or archangelS in Daniel 10:13, which means there is more than one arch angel. What I get from this and other translations is that it's Michaels job to protect the Jews. I don't read into it that it means he will be born of a woman as the Messiah

So the one who takes action against the kingdoms of the world is Micheal...he is the great prince who stands up during the time of distress. Jesus told his disciples that he is the one who takes over the rulership of the heavenly kingdom.
Luke 22:29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Micheal is Jesus. The one who is to rule the nations by Gods kingdom.

NT authors will obviously try and match descriptions of Jesus to what they viewed as Messianic prophesy in the OT. So Jesus being called the son of man, prince of heaven in the NT doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm looking for verses in the Jewish scriptures which describe a special son of God, created first above all other creations.

 

[savagewind]

NT authors will obviously try and match descriptions of Jesus to what they viewed as Messianic prophesy in the OT. So Jesus being called the son of man, prince of heaven in the NT doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm looking for verses in the Jewish scriptures which describe a special son of God, created first above all other creations.

When I read the first person narrative in the Hebrew scriptures I believe I am hearing one person's experience of his life on Earth. I believe the one person is The Son. Not everything that was written is about his presence in the flesh. Most of it is about his trials in the spirit.

 

[sojourner]

We disagree.

I quote a Baha'i source:

"[The] invisible yet rational God ... can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God."

—(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 113)

Peace,

Bruce

Fortunately, Christians don't follow the teachings of Bahaullah. We follow the teachings of the apostles.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus being called the son of man, prince of heaven in the NT doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm looking for verses in the Jewish scriptures which describe a special son of God, created first above all other creations.

You won't find any.

 

[Horrorble]

You won't find any.

Thanks

 

[jtartar]

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Didn't Jesus(pbuh) came from a womb ? Remember the resurrection didn't occur yet according the story so how did Jesus(pbuh) come from heaven as the verse states?

Fouad
Look up the first chapter of Luke, and at Luke 1:28-35, and you will see that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived in her womb, and she was to call the son, Jesus.
Now, here is what many do not realize; Jesus had been alive in heaven untold eons before he was born as a man on earth. The fact is; Jesus was the very first thing that God created, and all other things were created through him and for him, Rev 3:14. Col 1:15-17, 1Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2.
Some very interesting scriptures are found at Prov 8:22-31, where Jesus is spoken of as wisdom. Jesus was created and was the Masterworker for his Father, and the things that Jesus was fond of were with the sons of man.
Jesus also referred to the time he was with the Father at John 17:5, also at John 8:23.
Jehovah God put the seed of Jesus inside Mary and he became a man, in order for him to become a ransom sacrifice to free us from sin and death, 1Tim 2:4-7, 1Cor 15:42-47.

 

[jtartar]

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Didn't Jesus(pbuh) came from a womb ? Remember the resurrection didn't occur yet according the story so how did Jesus(pbuh) come from heaven as the verse states?

Fouad,
Conserning John 3:13, if you look up the scriptures I cite, and are able to understand what they are saying, you will know more that 90 something % of the religious teachers of today. PLEASE ruminate!!!
The reason that Jesus said that no one had gone into heaven, but the one who came from heaven, Jesus.
Please meditate on this; the way to heaven was not opened for men until after the death of Jesus, Heb 9:6-9. Jesus' boedy actually signified the curtain between the Holy and the Most Holy, in the temple, that is why it was recorded in the Holy Scriptures, Matt 27:51, Heb 6:18-20, 10:16-20.
When Jesus was speaking about Joh the Baptist, he mentioned something that touches on this subject, Matt 11:11-13. Notice that the scriptures say that, from the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of heaven is what men are striving for. John died before Jesus, so John the Baptist will not go to heaven, Notice that John is a great as any man BORN of WOMAN, bus a lesser one in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater that John. The reason is the ones that go to heaven are not Born of Woman, but are born again, of GOD, and being Born of God, who is a spirit, they will become spirit, immortal in heaven, John 1:10-14, 3:3-8, 1Cor 15:51-54.
Jesus was raised up a spirit and the ones who go to heaven are to receive thesame resurrection as Jesus received, 1Pet 3:18-21, Rom 6:5.
The ones resurrected to heaven with Jesus will also be co-heirs with Jesus of the Kingdom, and will be Kings and Priests with Jesus for the Thousand Year Judgement Day, Luke 22:28-30, 1Cor 4:8, 2Tim 2:12, Rom 8:14-17, Rev 1:6, 5:9,10, 7:3,4, 14:1-5, 20:4-7.
Jesus came to earth to fulfill the very first prophecy recorded in the Bible, Gen 3:15, and to break up the works of the Devil, 1John 3:8, Matt 20:28, Rev 20:10, to redeem man from si and death that the Mosaic Law Covenant condemned all under it ,TO, Gal 3:10-14, 2Cor 3:6,7,9.
Gentiles as well as Jews are under The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20, 2Cor 3:6, Heb 8:6-13.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Fortunately, Christians don't follow the teachings of Bahaullah. We follow the teachings of the apostles.

We prefer a more direct source, thank you; and you needn't decline at least to consider the point regardless.

Besides which, you might find the teachings rather more compatible then you apparently imagine.

Peace,

Bruce