John 3:13

[F0uad]

If he is perfect in love will he not slay hes enemies when he returns, what about condemning the pharisees and using the language he did. And if he is god according to you didn't he command Moses(pbuh) and the other prophets to kill cities with woman and man?

 

[savagewind]

If he perfect in love will he not slay hes enemies when he returns?

I do not know what he will do but I keep saying the scriptures they use to prove he will do that do not say what they lead people to believe they say.

I believe he will not slay anyone. And he does not order slaying.

 

[F0uad]

I do not know what he will do but I keep saying the scriptures they use to prove he will do that do not say what they lead people to believe they say.

I believe he will not slay anyone. And he does not order slaying.

So then God aka Jesus(pbuh) did not command Moses(pbuh) to do so? And what about the language he used against the pharisees how is that love?

 

[savagewind]

what about the language he used against the pharisees how is that love?

Yehoshua is a teacher. It was necessary for him to teach in a way that would be heard and remembered that false teachers are the worst of mankind.

 

[savagewind]

Whenever Moses was commanded to fight, it was always for freedom and justice. It was never for the purpose of conquest. That is what I believe.

False teachers are telling the fighting was for conquest.

 

[F0uad]

Whenever Moses was commanded to fight, it was always for freedom and justice. It was never for the purpose of conquest. That is what I believe.

False teachers are telling the fighting was for conquest.

Ok reasonable enough but i still don't see how Love comes into place..
And how is calling people son of devils, hypocrites, ignorant, liars loving?
I am not trying to understand why those things are in the bible i am trying to understand how they are loving because you made the claim that Jesus(pbuh) is perfect in love.

 

[Horrorble]

I still don't understand how the other angels who obey God are not perfect in love

 

[Horrorble]

Jesus who is meant to be the special angel of God first sentient being created,
closer in bond to God than anyone else is strangely enough, not clearly described or introduced to the Jewish people in the Jewish texts and is not taught by God in the Jewish texts. But cherubim are clearly taught and seraphim described, even the role of satan, but not Jesus Hhhuummm

 

[Pegg]

The verses before talk about Gods wisdom "I help kings to govern" "princes use me to lead" the verses are personifiying wisdom so it does make sense that wisdom says "I was created." How would kings and princes use Jesus before he supposedly came to earth? If its talking about Jesus.

so what you are saying is that there was a time when God did not have any knowledge or wisdom? He somehow came by it somewhere and it became a part of his instrinsic nature?
Sorry, but that doesnt make a lot of sense.


Who was it who led the Isrealites through the wilderness? This scripture says it was one of the angels:
Exodus 23:20 “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you and will indeed bring you to the Am′or·ites and the Hit′tites and the Per′iz·zites and the Ca′naan·ites, the Hi′vites and the Jeb′u·sites, and I shall certainly efface them

So there was an angel who led Isreal... Joshua had a meeting with this angel and he revealed something about his position:
Joshua 5:13 And it came about when Joshua happened to be by Jer′i·cho that he proceeded to raise his eyes and look, and there there was a man standing in front of him with his drawn sword in his hand. So Joshua walked up to him and said to him: “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 To this he said: “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: “What is my lord saying to his servant?” 15 In turn the prince of the army of Jehovah said to Joshua: “Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so.
This angel identified himself as a 'prince of the army of Jehovah'.... who is the prince of Gods people Isreal???

The prophet Daniel reveals the name of this heavenly prince... it is none other then Micheal the Arch Angel:
Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.
Dan 10:21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi′cha·el, the prince of YOU people.

So the Isrealites were led by an angle through the wilderness, Daniel names that angel as Micheal the Arch Angel the prince of 'You People' Isreal. This is the same Arch Angel revealed to be Jesus Christ in the book of 1Thessalonians 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet

So Jesus is the arch angel, this means he is Micheal and this means that it was Jesus who led Isreal through the wilderness...so you asked how would kings and princes use Jesus before he supposedly came to earth?.....he was their protector and guide.

 

[Pegg]

Jesus who is meant to be the special angel of God first sentient being created,
closer in bond to God than anyone else is strangely enough, not clearly described or introduced to the Jewish people in the Jewish texts and is not taught by God in the Jewish texts. But cherubim are clearly taught and seraphim described, even the role of satan, but not Jesus Hhhuummm

the hebrew scriptures were written and completed by the 5th century bce. Jesus arrived as the Messiah in the 1st century AD.

Anything written about him is written about his pre-human life when he was the 'angel who led Isreal' and when he was called the 'prince of Jehovah'...or Micheal the Arch angel.

He wasnt known as Jesus until after he had completed his assignment on earth.

 

[Horrorble]

so what you are saying is that there was a time when God did not have any knowledge or wisdom? He somehow came by it somewhere and it became a part of his instrinsic nature?
Sorry, but that doesnt make a lot of sense.


Who was it who led the Isrealites through the wilderness? This scripture says it was one of the angels:
Exodus 23:20 “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you and will indeed bring you to the Am′or·ites and the Hit′tites and the Per′iz·zites and the Ca′naan·ites, the Hi′vites and the Jeb′u·sites, and I shall certainly efface them

So there was an angel who led Isreal... Joshua had a meeting with this angel and he revealed something about his position:
Joshua 5:13 And it came about when Joshua happened to be by Jer′i·cho that he proceeded to raise his eyes and look, and there there was a man standing in front of him with his drawn sword in his hand. So Joshua walked up to him and said to him: “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 To this he said: “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: “What is my lord saying to his servant?” 15 In turn the prince of the army of Jehovah said to Joshua: “Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so.
This angel identified himself as a 'prince of the army of Jehovah'.... who is the prince of Gods people Isreal???

The prophet Daniel reveals the name of this heavenly prince... it is none other then Micheal the Arch Angel:
Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.
Dan 10:21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi′cha·el, the prince of YOU people.

So the Isrealites were led by an angle through the wilderness, Daniel names that angel as Micheal the Arch Angel the prince of 'You People' Isreal. This is the same Arch Angel revealed to be Jesus Christ in the book of 1Thessalonians 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet

So Jesus is the arch angel, this means he is Micheal and this means that it was Jesus who led Isreal through the wilderness...so you asked how would kings and princes use Jesus before he supposedly came to earth?.....he was their protector and guide.

When you personify something you apply HUMAN qualities and charactistics to it, so wisdom saying "god created me" makes sense because its written as if wisdom was a person. God decides what is right and wrong and what is wise so yes he creates wisdom for us.

The rest of the argument is weak you are saying Jesus is Michael from one line from the New Testament? Jesus has an arch Angels voice because he is in charge and leading. That's like saying God and Jesus are the same because they are both called mighty Gods and are both referred to as the first and last and they are both saviours.
where does it say in the Jewish scriptures that Micheal is the first being created? That is what I am asking?

 

[savagewind]

Ok reasonable enough but i still don't see how Love comes into place..
And how is calling people son of devils, hypocrites, ignorant, liars loving?
I am not trying to understand why those things are in the bible i am trying to understand how they are loving because you made the claim that Jesus(pbuh) is perfect in love.

Love tells the truth. He told them they were those because they were. They had ignored John The Baptist(pbuh) so Jesus(pbuh) could rightly say those things. They could have still repented and some did, I believe.

 

[Horrorble]

Also pegg a talking snake? An angelic being with the head of a man a lion an eagle 6 wings etc? That makes sense? As opposed to a poem about Gods wisdom...

 

[F0uad]

Love tells the truth. He told them they were those because they were. They had ignored John The Baptist(pbuh) so Jesus(pbuh) could rightly say those things. They could have still repented and some did, I believe.

I am not saying if they are right or wrong i belief that Jesus(pbuh) was a respectful guy in general and peaceful but you made the statement that he was perfect in love however when we read the NWT and the OT he clearly isn't.

 

[savagewind]

I am not saying if they are right or wrong i belief that Jesus(pbuh) was a respectful guy in general and peaceful but you made the statement that he was perfect in love however when we read the NWT and the OT he clearly isn't.

Dying like he died is not perfected love? It is to me. It is not an easy thing to love sinners. It might be considered by many impossible to love ALL the sinners but he proved in many ways that it is possible.

 

[Pegg]

When you personify something you apply HUMAN qualities and charactistics to it, so wisdom saying "god created me" makes sense because its written as if wisdom was a person. God decides what is right and wrong and what is wise so yes he creates wisdom for us.

The rest of the argument is weak you are saying Jesus is Michael from one line from the New Testament? Jesus has an arch Angels voice because he is in charge and leading. That's like saying God and Jesus are the same because they are both called mighty Gods and are both referred to as the first and last and they are both saviours.
where does it say in the Jewish scriptures that Micheal is the first being created? That is what I am asking?

the meaning of 'Arch' is 'chief' or foremost. Micheal is the foremost of all the angels...there must be some reason why he is the head of the angelic hosts.

the jewish scriptures do not reveal everything about the identity of that angel...but it tells us that it is Micheal who is made prince of heaven
Daniel 12:12 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. 2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.

Isaiah tells us that the one who becomes prince of heaven is the Messiah who will come to be born on earth
“There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” ISAIAH 9:6.

So the prince who 'stands in behalf of the sons of your people' isreal, also becomes the child born to the world...that child is the Messiah as we know. That Messiah proved to be Jesus Christ as we know him. But Jesus Christ is not who he has always been.

 

[Horrorble]

"There HAS been" "HAS been"

 

[Horrorble]

Also doesn't say the child is Michael

 

[Pegg]

Also doesn't say the child is Michael

you have to use all the scriptures together to get the picture. The bible is like a jigzaw puzzle... one scripture only gives you a tiny piece of information. You need more pieces to see the bigger picture.

 

[Horrorble]

the meaning of 'Arch' is 'chief' or foremost. Micheal is the foremost of all the angels...there must be some reason why he is the head of the angelic hosts.

"There must be a reason" and so we should assume that reason is because God made him first and he is Jesus. Woah