1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured John 14:9, and why 'gnosticism ' is varied in meaning

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Feb 22, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    John 14:8-9
    Yeshua tells Philip, that, the 'father' is known, not through, Him, Yeshua, rather as Him, Yeshua.

    There are different types of 'gnosticism', it's actually fairly broad, in meaning, however does follow certain traditional patterns. This is why gnostics would agree with each other, even though disagreeing on certain specifics.

    We note
    a parallel between gnosticism, and this narrative, of what Yeshua, says, here.

    So, Jesus isn't saying the 'father', that He refers to, can't be known, Jeshua literally tells Philip, that
    he has already known 'the father', by knowing Jesus!

    Ideas relating to Christian Gnosticism .
     
    #1 Desert Snake, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    It's just a fact as I've pointed out before. Jesus is the only God the Father manifest in human form.

    As for Gnosticism I don't see that it has anything to do with it.
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    You would think "yoheshua", your rabbi regional deity, would be all knowing, huh?
     
    #3 Desert Snake, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Who says Jesus isn't all knowing?

    Although it's true He said He does not know the day or hour of His return. (Mark 13:32) Yet, after His resurrection He states plainly that all power is given to Him in heaven and in earth. (Matthew 28:18) All power would include all knowledge.

    And this time when His disciples ask Him when He will return, He does not say that He doesn't know anymore. Instead, He says that it's not for them to know the time of His return. He does not include Himself. (Acts 1:7)
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Jesus isn't Yoheshua. There is no yoheshua noted in this context, and, you believe that yoheshua, [again that is your regional rabbi deity, it seems, cannot be connected to anything outside Israel.

    • speaking of which, it's confusing when you keep calling your regional rabbi deity Yoheshua, Jesus. As they are different. Why don't you just say 'yoheshua'?
     
    #5 Desert Snake, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    By the way, how did you get, that, from, 'regional rabbi deity named yoheshua'?

    Your rabbi deity yoheshua, being only in the context of Israel, probably isn't going to be all knowing.



    Matthew 1:21-23
    Tells you, that 'Jesus', has the same meaning as Emmanuel.

    Your regional deity, Yoheshua, isn't Jesus, since the book of Matthew tells you that 'Jesus', has the same meaning, as Emmanuel, which 'Yoheshua', doesn't.
     
    #6 Desert Snake, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Matthew translated Emmanuel for you in his book. He did not say that Emmanuel means Jesus. It means God with us.

    Emmanuel is another name for the Messiah just like Isaiah 9:6 gives Him the names Abi Ad Sar Shalom etc. Other prophecies call The Messiah David which means beloved. The names for the Messiah are by the Spirit of prophecy to teach us about the Messiah. He will be --and He is -- all these things to us.

    But, Matthew a Hebrew knew the meaning of the name Yeshua which is salvation of Yah.

    As for Jesus being only for the context of Israel. Why does God say to the Son that He will give Him the uttermost parts of the earth for His inheritance? (Psalm 2)

    Clearly Jesus the Messiah and Savior of Israel is going to be King of all the land not just Judea. So I'm not sure which Jesus you know; but the one I know is King of kings and Lord of lords.

    I'm concerned ... you seem really mixed up about the most basic Christian theological concepts. What's going on?
     
  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Matthew 1:21
    Matthew 1:22
    The name Jesus has to have the same meaning as Emmanuel, because that is the basis, of these verses. Because of the prophecy.
    Matthew 1:23

    • In other words, if the name 'Jesus', does not have the same meaning as Emmanuel, then the verses are self refuting.

    So, configuring that from 'Yoheshuah', certainly isn't literal, in fact, if the name is 'Yoheshua', as you claim, why even bring that prophecy up.
     
    #8 Desert Snake, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,740
    Ratings:
    +3,290
    Religion:
    Christian
    You think Israel will have a king? In the future?
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    First of all you have to separate between the modern nation state of Israel and God's Israel. Yes, Jesus is already King of Israel that belongs to God. But the nation state of Israel is another story. All human governments will be done away.
    Why not bring prophecy up???

    Explain how the Messiah is called the names David, Emmanuel, Abi Ad, Sar Shalom etc in prophecy. The Messiah has many prophetic names, but only one birth name which is the name above all names given among men whereby we must be saved. The verses are not self refuting. And you haven't proven a thing. Why would Matthew refute his own claims about Jesus?
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    I didn't say that Matthew did contradict himself. The verses are by any sort of direct reading, by your interpretation, self refuting. I didn't say that Matthew said the name was 'Yoheshuah', that is your theory.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    No, this is your interpretation, and the book of Matthew, says 'Emmanuel', as the prophecy referenced, not those other names.
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Matthew 1:21, 1:25 make it clear enough His birth name is Jesus/Yeshua. So again I say, Matthew wasn't refuting himself. So, let's try to understand Matthew's gospel.

    My interpretation? We'll see ...

    So you're claiming that Isaiah 9:6 is not Messianic prophecy? And that Jeremiah 30:9 is not Messianic prophecy? Maybe you're just in denial but it's obvious that the Messiah is called many names in prophecy.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,541
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    The verse doesn't say Yeshua, the reason why I use that name sometimes, is because it is the Aramaic Bible version of the name, and correlates by my estimation to Jesus, Yeshu, Yesu, Isho, Eesu, Esu, and some other variations. The name isn't Joheshuah, that is your regional deity rabbi, not all knowing.

    So, makes it easy to delineate, a regional deified rabbi isn't all knowing.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Of course the verse doesn't say Yeshua because it's written in Greek. It's Iēsous which is the Greek translation of Yeshua and is what we say now in English as Jesus.

    As for your stuff about a regional deity rabbi ... I don't follow you. :confused:
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,740
    Ratings:
    +3,290
    Religion:
    Christian
    Who or what is this? Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,740
    Ratings:
    +3,290
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why do you think Isaiah 9 is talking about Jesus?
     
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    It's Jesus the Son of God. The translation is Wonderful Counsellor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of peace.
    Matthew 4:14-16 makes the connection between Isaiah chapter 9 and Jesus. Jesus is the "Great Light" that they see in Galilee. This basically predicted that hte Messiah would begin His ministry in Galilee but most of the Jews did not make the connection for some reason. (John 7:52)
    Verse 6 of Isaiah 9 being about Jesus is really obvious for Christians because He is the Son of God and we already know that verses 1-2 are about Him also.
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,740
    Ratings:
    +3,290
    Religion:
    Christian
    We all know Jesus spent most of his ministry in Galilee and around the Decapolis.

    Isaiah wrote exclusively about Israel .. why would he suddenly switch to Jesus?
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,919
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Jesus is the real Israel. The prophecies of Isaiah are veiled for those who have not been given understanding by God Himself. Because only God can show it.

    This is why in chapter 6 when Isaiah saw the LORD in the temple and God gives Isaiah his commission as a prophet; God tells him "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

    In Isaiah 29:10-14, the prophet Isaiah even goes further and says that the vision will not be understood by those who are "wise or prudent". That is those who believe themselves wise or prudent. For these things are not intellectually discerned but only the Spirit of God can reveal them to you.

    Unto the wise this vision (of Isaiah) will be like a letter that is sealed and they do no have the authority to open the seal. Because the Letter is not even sent to them. And to the rest the letter will be as in a language they do not know how to read ... because they do no understand the things of God.

    The wise of this world are excluded from the wisdom of God because they don't seek it by trusting in God; but instead by their own intelligence. The wisdom of God will be revealed to babes. (Isaiah 28:9-13) Because it's not by might nor by power but through the Spirit of God that anyone can understand. But for the worldly "wise" of this age God says that with a stammering lip and another tongue He will speak to them but for all that they will not hear (or believe I can add).
     
Loading...