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John 14:6

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And what exactly is authentic and authoritative in the NT?

You may be familiar with this passage from the Universal House of Justice in regards the Bible.

..The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words

(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible

So what is authentic about the New Testament from a Baha’i perspective? We have a record of all that God wished to convey. What is authoritative? The New Testament is based on what God Revealed through Christ.

I believe whether we are Christian, Baha’is or anyone else living within Western culture, we need to meaningfully come to terms with what is written, understand it and if it is indeed from God, then align our lives with its core message. Part of that message is conveyed in the Gospel of John.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Part of that message is conveyed in the Gospel of John.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
It is a real stretch to believe that Jesus actually said what is in that verse, but even if He had said that, He did not say:
I am the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, and the ONLY life for all time: no man can EVER cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It is a real stretch to believe that Jesus actually said what is in that verse, but even if He had said that, He did not say:
I am the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, and the ONLY life for all time: no man can EVER cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We can be absolutely certain they were not the exact words Jesus spoke as Jesus didn't speak in English. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, the Gospels were written in Greek or Hebrew. These were later translated into Latin and eventually English over 400 years ago. However the core message of what was said seems clear enough to me. If you are a Jew and awaiting the Messiah to redeem the Jewish people, look no further than Jesus. The Christ has come.

Beyond that the Manifestations of God are there to enable us to draw closer to God. Trying to draw close to God and rejection His Manifestations will most likely become an exercise in frustration and futility.

If we want to consider other meanings of the verse we will appreciate John 14:6 is one of seven "I AM" statements in the Gospel of John. There are allusions to the Torah and Moses. God Himself spoke through Him to the Jewish people (Exodus 3:14).It links into the Divinity of Christ, a central theme of this particular Gospel in my opinion.

So I don't see John 14:6 as being problematic at all for Baha'is. The Universal of Justice refers to it in a publication called "One Common Faith" it commissioned earlier this century.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So I don't see John 14:6 as being problematic at all for Baha'is. The Universal of Justice refers to it in a publication called "One Common Faith" it commissioned earlier this century.
What did the UHJ say?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If you interpret that literally as Christians do it becomes problematic because it means that no man can come to God except through Jesus. And you don't see a problem with that? Of course it means that no man can come to God through Baha'u'llah. Who is "Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws?" It is not Jesus Christ, it is Baha'u'llah.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

Good question Adrian, if you don't mind me returning to the OP just to offer my own reflections (I am aware that the discussion has gone on for many pages and developed greatly since).

As with any exegetical matter, we need to parse the language of the text (Koine Greek in this case), contextualize the verse with reference to the totality of scripture (not in isolation), parallels in contemporaneous literature and consider how the words were interpreted by the earliest exegetes, by whom I mean the Apostolic and Church Fathers who were closer in time than us to the original text.

In the Christian New Testamental texts, Jesus is the incarnation of the 'Wisdom/Word' of God, pre-existing with the Father before the creation of the World and is described in the same terms as God (as "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature" (Hebrews 1:3)).

The word used in John 14:6 is hodos - which means "way, path".

When Jesus in the above chapter of John (chapter 14) refers to himself as being the 'path' to "My father’s house" where there are "many rooms prepared", scholars such as Adele Reinhartz have written of this: "There may be an allusion here to the Jewish “Hekhalot” (“palaces”) tradition, involving stories in which a seer visits the heavenly realm and explores its different rooms (based on the chariot vision in Ezek 1, and in such works as 1 En. 17, 18)."

So Jesus appears to have been invoking for himself a mediatorial function.

Earlier in John 10:7, Jesus figuratively refers to himself as the "gate for the sheep", the sheep are his disciples to whom he tends as master and Lord - so all he is intimating here is that he is the 'pathway' for his disciples to ascend to the merkabah (divine throne). The particular verse doesn't exclude that other entities - angels or exalted humans - might also be so (albeit in a lesser way) for other people.

Before that again, near the very beginning of the gospel, Jesus had employed different imagery comparing himself to a ladder for the disciples:


"Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” (John 1:50-51).

In her commentary upon this verse, Jewish scholar Adele Reinhartz notes: "Angels … ascending and descending, an allusion to Jacob’s dream (Gen 28.12), implying that Jesus is the ladder connecting heaven and earth."

Jesus isn't here describing a ladder with 'one rung' - rather he is describing himself as the ladder, which has many rungs (i.e. other angelic beings 'ascending and descending' acting as his intermediaries).

So, the sense we get from a bare reading of the text of the Gospel of John, is that it espouses a theology in which there is one 'ladder' between heaven and earth, Jesus the Son of God, who functions as the 'gate' and 'pathway' for his disciples to attain to the merkabah (presence of God) incarnate in his person (the Divine Logos from the prologue who is in the bosom of the Father from eternity as his agent of creation). Yet this one mediator does not exclude the existence of many intermediaries, such as the angels ascending and descending upon Jesus "the way, the truth and the life".

The Johannine prologue affirms that “the Word [pre-incarnate Jesus] is the true light that enlightens every man coming into the world” (John 1:9). This doctrine was named by the later Church Fathers, the semina Verbi (seeds of the Word).

St. John Chrysostom (347-407), Archbishop of Constantinople and an important early church father, addressed this doctrine in his Homily 8 on the Gospel of John, in the context of an exegetical commentary on John 1:9:


CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 8 on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)


"How then does He light every man? He lights all as far as in Him lies [...] For the grace is shed forth upon all, turning itself back neither from Jew, nor Greek, nor Barbarian, nor Scythian, nor free, nor bond, nor male, nor female, nor old, nor young, but admitting all alike, and inviting with an equal regard."​


It is echoed in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13: 3−9, where the divinely scattered seeds of divine truth are dispensed indiscriminately, to all and sundry, according to the patristic interpretation - not just the preserve of Christians, even though we have (in our understanding) the fullness of truth of the Divine Word.

St. Paul likewise informs us of pagans being able to access the 'natural law' of God inhering in every conscience and thus attaining salvation in Christ: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness" (Romans 2:14).

In his encyclical Letter, Redemptoris missio (1990), Pope St. John Paul II, insisting on the dialogue between Christian faith and non Christian religions, states that that: “through dialogue, the Church seeks to uncover the seeds of the Word (semina verbi), a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men; these are found in individuals and in their religious traditions of mankind.

Semina verbi is a very ancient expression, coined by the church father St. Justin Martyr circa 150 A.D., which resurfaced in the documents of the Second Vatican Council to designate whatever is “true and holy" and divinely inspired in other religions.

It is sometimes said that at Vatican II, the Catholic Church 'entered' the modern pluralist world and embraced interfaith dialogue unfailingly for the first time. What is often forgetten is that conciliar theology was defined by two governing principles the number one being: (1) ressourcement ("return to the sources"), namely return to the patristic texts of the Church Fathers where we find the following:


"We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and…that he is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers. And they who lived with the logos are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and people like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Asarias, and Misael, and Elias."

(St. Justin Martyr 1997, First Apology, l.46)



"For whatever either lawgivers or philosophers uttered well, they elaborated by finding and contemplating some part of the Word...

And those of the Stoic school — since, so far as their moral teaching went, they were admirable, as were also the poets in some particulars, on account of the seed of reason [the Logos] implanted in every race of men — were, we know, hated and put to death — Heraclitus for instance, and, among those of our own time, Musonius and others..."



(St. Justin Martyr 1997, Second Apology, l.10)​



Again Justin says, “For he [the Logos] exhibits among every race of men the things that are righteous at all times and in all places ... it was well said by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, that all righteousness and piety are fulfilled in two commandments.”

Other early Christian Fathers who embraced the existence of goodness and elements of divinely inspired truth in other religions include St. Clement of Alexandria (c.150–c.215), Origen (c.184–c.253), St. Basil the Great (329–379), St. Gregory Nazianzus (329–390) and St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430).

This is the theological basis underlying Nostra Aetate (1965), the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions, adopted the vision and terminology of these early Church Fathers, and thus spoke - like they did millennia ago - of the presence in these religious traditions "of a ray of that Truth which enlightens all":

Nostra aetate (vatican.va)


DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

NOSTRA AETATE

PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI

ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language.

Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust.

Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites.

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Fortunately there are Catholics on this forum who engage constructively in Interfaith discussion and debate mindful of changes the church went through with Vatican II. However there’s clearly a huge fundamentalist backlash within Catholicism. Christianity is of course hopelessly splintered and the unity of the Catholic Church has long gone.

There is certainly a degree of fractiousness within the body of the Catholic Church under the papacy of Pope Francis (as there has been in many epochs of the Church, think of the Protestant Reformation for one!), however it must be noted that interfaith dialogue (of the kind endorsed and defined by Nostra Aetate in the Second Vatican Council of the '60s) is not actually part of this intra-ecclesiastical acrimony (it has much more to do with Francis's pastoral guidance on communion for the divorced and remarried, and outreach to cohabitating couples not sacramentally married - sexual morality, in other words).

The apogee of the Church's ecumenism was reached under the papacy of Pope St. John Paul II in the 1980s - 2000s, who is considered by most people to have been a deeply socially conservative and traditionalist pontiff, yet he was also the most inclusivist when it came to embracing other faith traditions (he famously kissed a Qur'an, declared that Christians worship the same God as Muslims and organised numerous interreligious gatherings in Assisi). He is widely admired by conservative Catholics, in the mainstream traditionalism of the Church, and that includes his openness to those of other faiths.

Outside a small minority of actual schismatics (known as 'sedevacantists') and those within the Church but sympathetic to that kind of regressive worldview, 'mainstream' conservative Catholics do not reject either the Second Vatican Council (which is as binding in its dogmatic decrees as the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, it was actually attended by more of the world's bishops than at any preceding ecumenical council, making it a full expression of the church's ordinary and universal magisterium or teaching authority) or its pronouncements on interfaith dialogue.

Those kind of traditionalists make up a very small and heterodox minority of Catholics, mainly affiliated with organisations like the SSPX (either outright schismatic / excommunicated or on a precarious borderline 'greyzone' in that respect). There are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world (accounting for 53% of the global Christian population) and of that huge number of people only around 1 million are "Trads" (as we call them):


Traditionalist Catholicism - Wikipedia


Estimates of the number of traditionalist Catholics vary. Catholic World News reported that "the Vatican" estimated the number of those served by the Fraternity of St Peter, the Society of St Pius X and similar groups at "close to 1 million".[67] Various sources estimate the adherents of the Society of St Pius X alone at 1 million.[68][69][70][71] No major religious survey has ever made an attempt to sample and enumerate subsets of Catholics by their position on a liberal to mainstream conservative to traditionalist and sedevacantist continuum, so any figures on the numbers of traditionalist Catholics must by necessity be more or less educated guesses.


In Catholic terms (given that we're so numerous) that's absolutely tiny.

The important consideration here is that the vast majority of the world's Catholics are in communion with the Roman Pontiff and to be so, they need to accept the validity and doctrinally binding nature of every single one of the ecumenical councils. The New Testament teaches that:


Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” .Matthew 16: 13-20​


This is especially so in the context of ecumenical councils, where all the world's bishops - the successors of the apostles, in union with the papal magisterium - 'bind' things pertaining to doctrine, canon and pastoral matters. The Holy Spirit is believed to act through the extraordinary magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church.

Vatican II has 'bound' these decrees on earth and thus in heaven as well, including Nostra Aetate but also the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, which doctrinally defines among many other things:


Lumen gentium (vatican.va)


16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.


Note what Lumen Gentium is:


Lumen gentium - Wikipedia


Lumen gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, is one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. This dogmatic constitution was promulgated by Pope Paul VI on 21 November 1964, following approval by the assembled bishops by a vote of 2,151 to 5.


It is a 'dogmatic' constitution. And it doctrinally defined that the plan of salvation "includes those who acknowledge the Creator (i.e. all monotheists). In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God", before extending its inclusive vision of salvation to other religious people such as polytheists and even the irreligious (atheists and agnostics).


No future pontiff can annul the decisions of the Council:


Pope Francis says with magisterial authority: the Vatican II liturgical reform is ‘irreversible’


Vatican II - Voice of The Church


Whatever were our opinions about the Council's various doctrines before its conclusions were promulgated, today our adherence to the decisions of the Council must be whole hearted and without reserve; it must be willing and prepared to give them the service of our thought, action and conduct. The Council was something very new: not all were prepared to understand and accept it. But now the conciliar doctrine must be seen as belonging to the magisterium of the Church and, indeed, be attributed to the breath of the Holy Spirit. (Paul VI to the Roman Curia, 23 April, 1966)

Although the Second Vatican Council took place in the 1960's, it has lost none of its relevance more than half a century later and should still be centre place in the consciousness of the Church. As St John Paul II wrote on the eve of the new millennium:


…there [in the Council] we find a sure compass by which to take our bearings in the century now beginning
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What did the UHJ say?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If you interpret that literally as Christians do it becomes problematic because it means that no man can come to God except through Jesus. And you don't see a problem with that? Of course it means that no man can come to God through Baha'u'llah. Who is "Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws?" It is not Jesus Christ, it is Baha'u'llah.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

The publication “One Common Faith” is essential reading IMHO. It provides an overview of religion generally and Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation more specifically with the context of the twenty first century.

The specific reference to John 14:6 is early on in the second section:

There is equal agreement in these texts that the soul’s ability to attain to an understanding of its Creator’s purpose is the product not merely of its own effort, but of interventions of the Divine that open the way. The point was made with memorable clarity by Jesus: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” If one is not to see in this assertion merely a dogmatic challenge to other stages of the one ongoing process of Divine guidance, it is obviously the expression of the central truth of revealed religion: that access to the unknowable Reality that creates and sustains existence is possible only through awakening to the illumination shed from that Realm. One of the most cherished of the Qur’án’s surihs takes up the metaphor: “God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.… Light upon Light! God doth guide whom He will to His Light.” In the case of the Hebrew prophets, the Divine intermediary that was later to appear in Christianity in the person of the Son of Man and in Islám as the Book of God assumed the form of a binding Covenant established by the Creator with Abraham, Patriarch and Prophet: “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”

One Common Faith | Bahá’í Reference Library

Although the meaning of John 14:6 is consistent with the first verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, I don’t believe John is a specific reference to Bahá’u’lláh, anymore than it being a repudiation of Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam. To understand the verse requires consideration of the cultural and historical context. Christ’s audience was almost exclusively Jewish and it is a reference to Jewish scriptures and echoes the theme throughout Christ’s ministry that He is the Promised Jewish Messiah. It makes no sense to consider it being about Hinduism or Buddhism as there are no other specific references to these religions in the NT. Nor is it specifically about Islam or the Baha’i Faith as neither religion would emerge for many more centuries. Jesus had just predicted His martyrdom in the week leading up to His crucifixion and so He comforts His Disciples reminding them He is the Promised Messiah and through Him one comes to the Father. Beyond that the principle could be applied to any of the Manifestations of God as the publication commissioned by the Universal House of Justice elucidates.

That’s how I see it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you @Vouthon for an informed and enlightened commentary about a number of issues including John 14:6, ecumenicism, Vatican II and the unity of the Catholic Church. There is no doubt the Catholic Church appears much more cohesive and less divided than its Protestant counterparts. I see division in regards politics in America, for example efforts to deny President Joe Biden communion on account of his political stance towards abortion. The issue of homosexuality appears another problem for unity within Catholicism. My step-mother is a lapsed Catholic in part because of attitudes from her Church about her second marriage to my father. Of course I am not a Catholic and never have been. Its always really interesting to hear from one of the best legal minds on RF about how Catholics grapple which such issues as well as the ones you have so ably addressed with your recent posts.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
And what exactly is authentic and authoritative in the NT?

We all know that different Christians argue amongst themselves who is really a true Christian. Some Protestant sects reject Catholics as being true Christians. And some people reject all Christians because they don't have it together about what is the truth about God and Jesus.

Now comes the Baha'is... They believe Jesus was one of many "manifestations" of God. And since Jesus came there have been three more manifestations, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Baha'is, along with not believing Jesus is God, don't believe that Satan is real. They don't believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus. They don't believing in any original or inherited sin from Adam and many more things. It is a totally different religion than your religion. I don't see why they even pretend or bother calling themselves "Christian". That is totally and completely misleading to what they really believe. I personally think they are closer to a liberal form of Shi'a Islam.

But what is it that they really trying to do? Unite the world in love and peace. To get away from the religious and racial prejudices that have divided people. Not bad stuff, but to get rid of religious division, they have to make some changes on how each religion sees itself and sees others. Jesus can't be God. He can't be the only way. There has to be a way that the essence of what Jesus taught is compatible with what other religious leaders have taught. And Baha'is do that. But then what do they do with the contradictions in the teachings of the other religions? They explain them away. If one religion says this and the other says that, the Baha'is say that the message was symbolic and was misunderstood.

Jesus being God is a good example of that. Some of the things said about Jesus, some of things he said about himself, and some of the things he did certainly make it seem like he must be God. But Baha'is put as close to being God as possible without being God. They say he, and all other manifestations of God, were perfect reflections of God. So looking at that reflection it would sure seem like you were looking at God, but no.

I get into all the time with the Baha'is over the resurrection. I think the gospels make it very close, almost, that Jesus came physically back to life. He ate with the disciples. He showed him the nail holes in his hands and feet. It was him. But what kind of him was it? The guy could appear and disappear and then floated up into the clouds? Physical bodies don't do that. So Baha'is say that all that was true, but only symbolically. The whole resurrection story is somehow some fictional metaphor that has some great spiritual meaning. And the same with Satan. He's only a metaphor. He's not real. So everything Catholics and other Christians think is true... is not. I don't know what else to tell, but you're not going to get them to see the "light" and somehow see how you were right and they were wrong. 'Cause they think the same way about you. That maybe someday you will see the "light" of how they are right. And see that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally and that all religions are really one.
.
CG Didymus It's good to meet you!
I agree they are indeed deaf to the truth!

There can only be one truth 2+2=4

There is ONLY one God and ONLY one true religion! To reject the Holy Catholic Church they MUST reject Jesus! To reject Jesus they MUST reject the Scriptures and History!
They come alone after 1900 years and say: "Wait; Stop the press we have the truth, you have been wrong all this time"!

CG Didymus Satan also rejects; Jesus is God, don't you think Satan would be trying to toss all forms of half truths at man to confuse man!? Satan is the father of lies!
The Mormons also reject Jesus is God the Jehovah Witness the same: Throughout history in every century small groups of people have rejected truth and spread error!
Historical fact; The Catholic Church was established 2000 years ago by Jesus! Jesus left Peter as the chief Shepherd to help guide God' holy flock!

Luke 10:16Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.
CG Didymus To reject the Catholic Church is to reject God! ... whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me!
This verse MUST be rejected by all man made religions!

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
This verse MUST also be rejected by all man made religions! ..... ALWAYS with you!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There is ONLY one God and ONLY one true religion! To reject the Holy Catholic Church they MUST reject Jesus! To reject Jesus they MUST reject the Scriptures and History!

So do you believe Protestants also reject Jesus?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The Mormons also reject Jesus is God the Jehovah Witness the same.
You're wrong about this, Dogknox. The Jehovah's Witnesses may reject the fact that Jesus is God, but the Mormons absolutely do believe He was God. Even in the Book of Mormon, this is clearly stated:

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
You're wrong about this, Dogknox. The Jehovah's Witnesses may reject the fact that Jesus is God, but the Mormons absolutely do believe He was God. Even in the Book of Mormon, this is clearly stated:

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Hello Katzpur Good to meet you.. I hope all is well...
I reply:
Christians believe there is only one God who exists as a Trinity of three persons. Mormons believe there are many gods and that the Trinity is incomprehensible. They believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate divine beings and they are “one” only in the sense of their perfect cooperation. Joseph Smith said of the Trinity, “Three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372).

Christians believe that God’s divine nature is immaterial. Since God created all matter, he is not composed of matter. Although the Son has assumed a material, human nature since his incarnation, the Holy Spirit and the Father are both immaterial persons. But Mormonism teaches, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). According to the Book of Abraham (which is a part of the LDS scriptures called The Pearl of Great Price), God rules on a throne situated near a star or planet in our universe called Kolob.

Christians believe there is one God, but Mormons believe there are many gods and that human beings can be “exalted” to godhood. The reason the God of this world has a physical body, according to Mormons, is because he was once a sinful man like us, but after death he was exalted and became the God who created this world. In a sermon for elder King Follett, Joseph Smith said, “You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you.”

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the divine second person of the Trinity who has assumed a human nature. Jesus was always divine and always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Humans, angels, and all other creatures began to exist at some point when God created them, and only God is eternal. But Mormons believe Jesus was once an eternally existing “intelligence” whom God chose to become “the first-born” among the intelligences, who eventually became “us” when God also gave them bodies. Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus said to him, “I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the First-born; and all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the First-born. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (Doctrine and Covenants 93:31–33).

Although it is not essential to Christianity, as is belief in the classical doctrine of the Trinity, Christians have traditionally believed that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle or apostolic man. But Mormons believe that revelation is ongoing and that the president of their church is a living prophet (Nelson claims that the new name focus came to him by a special revelation from God). Moreover, they believe that ancient Jews traveled to the Americas and founded a civilization that Jesus later visited. The teachings of these peoples became “another testament of Jesus Christ” that was published in 1830 as a set of inspired scriptures called the Book of Mormon.

Katzpur Joseph Smith taught (paraphrase) "There is NO church left on earth; he has to re-establish what Jesus lost to Satan!"
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” Amen.

Katzpur... The God of the Mormon is a different God from the Christian God! Mormons reject what Christians believe!

Katzpur Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god. He does not exist from all eternity. (Nor, for that matter, does his Father.) He was first made by a union of his heavenly parents. After having been reared and taught in the heavens, he achieved a certain divine stature. Jesus Christ merely joins the end of a long line of gods who have preceded him.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
So do you believe Protestants also reject Jesus?
Hello adrian009 I hope all is going well with you! It's very hot where I live! All winter it's too cold to go outside & all summer it's too hot to go outside... :-(

I reply: Protestants reject the Holy Catholic Church! To reject the One Church Jesus established they must also reject the scriptures! They do NOT reject Jesus!
adrian009 The God of the Protestant is Jesus Christ; they are Christian! Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Mormon & Jehovah Witness are NOT!
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Hello Katzpur Good to meet you.. I hope all is well...
I reply:
Christians believe there is only one God who exists as a Trinity of three persons. Mormons believe there are many gods and that the Trinity is incomprehensible. They believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate divine beings and they are “one” only in the sense of their perfect cooperation. Joseph Smith said of the Trinity, “Three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372).

Christians believe that God’s divine nature is immaterial. Since God created all matter, he is not composed of matter. Although the Son has assumed a material, human nature since his incarnation, the Holy Spirit and the Father are both immaterial persons. But Mormonism teaches, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). According to the Book of Abraham (which is a part of the LDS scriptures called The Pearl of Great Price), God rules on a throne situated near a star or planet in our universe called Kolob.

Christians believe there is one God, but Mormons believe there are many gods and that human beings can be “exalted” to godhood. The reason the God of this world has a physical body, according to Mormons, is because he was once a sinful man like us, but after death he was exalted and became the God who created this world. In a sermon for elder King Follett, Joseph Smith said, “You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you.”

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the divine second person of the Trinity who has assumed a human nature. Jesus was always divine and always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Humans, angels, and all other creatures began to exist at some point when God created them, and only God is eternal. But Mormons believe Jesus was once an eternally existing “intelligence” whom God chose to become “the first-born” among the intelligences, who eventually became “us” when God also gave them bodies. Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus said to him, “I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the First-born; and all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the First-born. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (Doctrine and Covenants 93:31–33).

Although it is not essential to Christianity, as is belief in the classical doctrine of the Trinity, Christians have traditionally believed that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle or apostolic man. But Mormons believe that revelation is ongoing and that the president of their church is a living prophet (Nelson claims that the new name focus came to him by a special revelation from God). Moreover, they believe that ancient Jews traveled to the Americas and founded a civilization that Jesus later visited. The teachings of these peoples became “another testament of Jesus Christ” that was published in 1830 as a set of inspired scriptures called the Book of Mormon.

Katzpur Joseph Smith taught (paraphrase) "There is NO church left on earth; he has to re-establish what Jesus lost to Satan!"
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” Amen.

Katzpur... The God of the Mormon is a different God from the Christian God! Mormons reject what Christians believe!

Katzpur Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god. He does not exist from all eternity. (Nor, for that matter, does his Father.) He was first made by a union of his heavenly parents. After having been reared and taught in the heavens, he achieved a certain divine stature. Jesus Christ merely joins the end of a long line of gods who have preceded him.

@Dogknox20 , @Katzpur and I are bot extremely well studied / decades actively believing members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormon"). Both she and I know what "Mormons" believe very thoroughly.

If you want an thoughtful conversation on the matter, both she and I will be happy to talk to you and explain how "Mormons" believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one eternal God.

On the other hand, if you just want to try to "inform" us what "Mormons believe" via copy/pasting from another site (‘Mormon’ No More? .)... well you certainly can do that or whatever else you want. But that's not a conversation, nor thoughtful, nor giving a accurate view of what "Mormons" actually believe. Strawman arguments don't persuade anyone.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
@Dogknox20 , @Katzpur and I are bot extremely well studied / decades actively believing members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormon"). Both she and I know what "Mormons" believe very thoroughly.

If you want an thoughtful conversation on the matter, both she and I will be happy to talk to you and explain how "Mormons" believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one eternal God.

On the other hand, if you just want to try to "inform" us what "Mormons believe" via copy/pasting from another site (‘Mormon’ No More? .)... well you certainly can do that or whatever else you want. But that's not a conversation, nor thoughtful, nor giving a accurate view of what "Mormons" actually believe. Strawman arguments don't persuade anyone.

Jane.Doe Hello I hope all is well..
I reply: By copy/pasting from another site I show it is NOT just my opinion! Mormons cannot prove they are Christian!
FACT: Christians have always taught "Jesus is God" the One and ONLY God! That God is ONE in three persons!
Christians have always taught the Father is SPIRIT! That the Father could not have had flesh or bone! Christians reject a universe called Kolob!

Jane.Doe Christians believe there is one God, NOT many gods! Christians reject that human beings can be “exalted” to godhood. Christians believe and have always taught God is perfect and has ALWAYS been perfect. Christians teach God cannot sin or he would not be perfect; he would NOT then be God! Christians REJECT any idea that God was once a sinful man, like us! Christians REJECT any idea of many God' there WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL be ONE and ONLY one God!

Christians have traditionally believed that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle!
Jane.Doe Christians reject any idea that Jews traveled to the Americas founding a civilization that Jesus later visited. FACT: There is NO DNA evidence to prove the Mormon position!
Christians have always rejected the idea that Jesus failed to establish his Church FACT Jesus build on ROCK not on sand! Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH his Church to the very end of Time!
Christians have always rejected idea of becoming a God of our own planet! Christian TEACH there is but only One God!
Satan wants to be God why would he not tempt man to believe the same!? Christians have a two thousand year history the Mormon religion does not, they teach Christianity failed!

It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27).
Jane.Doe Christians REJECT any idea of "Baptism of the Dead"!

God is infinite Spirit (John 4:24).
A spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
God is not a man, even an exalted one (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9).
God was always God; he is immortal, and he is all-holy (1 Tim. 1:17).
No one can see the “face” of God and live (Ex. 33:20, John 1:18).

Christians do not teach a plurality of Lords and Gods. Christians REJECT any idea of Many Gods!
Christ and his followers confirm monotheism in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, and Ephesians 4:6. The Son is called God throughout Christian scripture. John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is confessed as God in Acts 5:3-4 and 2 Corinthians 3:17. If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God, then only the truth revealed in the Blessed Trinity can explain Scripture’s doctrines.

Jane.Doe This is NOT Christian teaching! Mormons teach a different Gospel they believe in a different God!
Spencer W. Kimball, Mormon prophet during the 1980s, declared to a group of male college students: “Each one of you has it within the realm of possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and God. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness to govern such a world with all of its people” (Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 29).

Christians REJECT any idea of God the Father having sexual intercourse with the blessed virgin Mary! This teaching is heresy it's of Satan!
Christians worship Christ, we to pray to him. Thomas’s worshipful phrase, “My Lord and my God”

Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Jane.Doe Jesus lets them worship him! Jesus never stops them from worshipping him!
Jesus KNOWS worship is ONLY for God... He told Satan "Worship God ONLY"!
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Jane.Doe Hello I hope all is well..
I reply: By copy/pasting from another site I show it is NOT just my opinion! Mormons cannot prove they are Christian!
FACT: Christians have always taught "Jesus is God" the One and ONLY God! That God is ONE in three persons!
Christians have always taught the Father is SPIRIT! That the Father could not have had flesh or bone! Christians reject a universe called Kolob!

Jane.Doe Christians believe there is one God, NOT many gods! Christians reject that human beings can be “exalted” to godhood. Christians believe and have always taught God is perfect and has ALWAYS been perfect. Christians teach God cannot sin or he would not be perfect; he would NOT then be God! Christians REJECT any idea that God was once a sinful man, like us! Christians REJECT any idea of many God' there WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL be ONE and ONLY one God!

Christians have traditionally believed that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle!
Jane.Doe Christians reject any idea that Jews traveled to the Americas founding a civilization that Jesus later visited. FACT: There is NO DNA evidence to prove the Mormon position!
Christians have always rejected the idea that Jesus failed to establish his Church FACT Jesus build on ROCK not on sand! Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH his Church to the very end of Time!
Christians have always rejected idea of becoming a God of our own planet! Christian TEACH there is but only One God!
Satan wants to be God why would he not tempt man to believe the same!? Christians have a two thousand year history the Mormon religion does not, they teach Christianity failed!

It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27).
Jane.Doe Christians REJECT any idea of "Baptism of the Dead"!

God is infinite Spirit (John 4:24).
A spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
God is not a man, even an exalted one (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9).
God was always God; he is immortal, and he is all-holy (1 Tim. 1:17).
No one can see the “face” of God and live (Ex. 33:20, John 1:18).

Christians do not teach a plurality of Lords and Gods. Christians REJECT any idea of Many Gods!
Christ and his followers confirm monotheism in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, and Ephesians 4:6. The Son is called God throughout Christian scripture. John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is confessed as God in Acts 5:3-4 and 2 Corinthians 3:17. If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God, then only the truth revealed in the Blessed Trinity can explain Scripture’s doctrines.

Jane.Doe This is NOT Christian teaching! Mormons teach a different Gospel they believe in a different God!
Spencer W. Kimball, Mormon prophet during the 1980s, declared to a group of male college students: “Each one of you has it within the realm of possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and God. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness to govern such a world with all of its people” (Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 29).

Christians REJECT any idea of God the Father having sexual intercourse with the blessed virgin Mary! This teaching is heresy it's of Satan!
Christians worship Christ, we to pray to him. Thomas’s worshipful phrase, “My Lord and my God”

Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Jane.Doe Jesus lets them worship him! Jesus never stops them from worshipping him!
Jesus KNOWS worship is ONLY for God... He told Satan "Worship God ONLY"!
I'm getting the strong impression that you're not interested in actually having a thoughtful conversation, but instead just reciting old inaccurate strawman arguments to inform "Mormons" what "Mormons" believe.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Cherry picking. There was a group clerics that believed at the time of Constantine that Jesus was not God.

The Nicene Creed was adopted to resolve the Arian controversy, whose leader, Arius, a clergyman of Alexandria, "objected to Alexander's (the bishop of the time) apparent carelessness in blurring the distinction of nature between the Father and the Son by his emphasis on eternal generation".[11][12] Alexander and his supporters created the Nicene Creed to clarify the key tenets of the Christian faith in response to the widespread adoption of Arius' doctrine, which was henceforth marked as heresy.

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Constantine had become a worshiper of the Christian God, but he found that there were many opinions on that worship and indeed on who and what that God was. In 316, Constantine was asked to adjudicate in a North African dispute of the Donatist sect (who began by refusing obedience to any bishops who had yielded in any way to persecution, later regarding all bishops but their own sect as utterly contaminated). More significantly, in 325 he summoned the First Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified).[43] The Council of Nicaea is the first major attempt by Christians to define orthodoxy for the whole Church. Until Nicaea, all previous Church Councils had been local or regional synods affecting only portions of the Church.

Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia
.
Truthseeker9 You cannot deny history like or NOT! Christians have ALWAYS taught Jesus is God! Arius was cast out from among Christians just has scriptures prophesy foretold! Arius was rejected as a FALSE TEACHER.. Arius WAS a Christian until he taught; Jesus was NOT God! Satan wants to be God; Satan logically would tempt men to reject Jesus as their God!

Truthseeker9.... Ignatius of Antioch is a Christian!
He wrote in 110 A.D.
Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

He wrote in 110 A.D. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

He also wrote in 110 A.D. “[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).
Truthseeker9 did you see it? Jesus Christ, our God
>>>>>

Truthseeker9.... Aristides is a Christian
Aristides the CHRISTIAN wrote in A.D.140..
“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).
>>>>>

Truthseeker9.... Tatian the Syrian is a Christian
The CHRISTIAN Tatian wrote is A.D. 170.
We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).
Did you see it? we report that God was born in the form of a man
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I'm getting the strong impression that you're not interested in actually having a thoughtful conversation, but instead just reciting old inaccurate strawman arguments to inform "Mormons" what "Mormons" believe.
.
No strawman
Jane.Doe... Well lets have it.... Deny the Mormon teaching of "Many God's"!

I wait!
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
.
No strawman
Jane.Doe... Well lets have it.... Deny the Mormon teaching of "Many God's"!

I wait!
Such is a strawman starting point.

First: let's start with core beliefs. The Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons. They together are 1 God. Each is eternal, all powerful, all knowing, all loving, all divine, etc. This is stated over and over again in scripture.

Can you give me an indication that you're actually hearing what I'm saying.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello adrian009 I hope all is going well with you! It's very hot where I live! All winter it's too cold to go outside & all summer it's too hot to go outside... :-(

I reply: Protestants reject the Holy Catholic Church! To reject the One Church Jesus established they must also reject the scriptures! They do NOT reject Jesus!
adrian009 The God of the Protestant is Jesus Christ; they are Christian! Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Mormon & Jehovah Witness are NOT!

Its winter where I live (New Zealand) but all is well. Thanks for asking.

Thanks also for clarifying your views. It sounds as if you equate accepting or rejecting Jesus with whether or not one believes in the Trinity. Is that correct? If so, is that an official Catholic position or simply your belief?
 
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