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Featured John 14:6

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, May 21, 2021.

  1. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Jane.Doe thank you for your reply...
    I point out.. Half truth is not truth!

    Polytheism—as the bedrock belief of the LDS church a “plurality” of gods, gods without number, each one ruling his own creation. This is NOT Christian belief!
    Question: Was God the father ALWAYS PERFECT!? Teaching that God is perfect now, that he wasn’t always so, is NOT Christian! Teaching once God was imperfect, as a mortal, and he had to arrive at perfection through his own labor, is NOT Christian!
    Mormons teach that “Heavenly Father,” begat the spirit body of his first son. Together with his heavenly wife, the Father raised his son in the council of the gods. This is NOT Christian teaching!
    Mormons teach: Before the creation of this world, Jesus Christ presented to his father a plan of salvation which would enable the billions of future human beings the opportunity of passing through mortality and returning to heaven, there to become gods of their own worlds. This is NOT Christian belief!

    Teaching that "Satan (Lucifer) is the Brother of Jesus" is NOT Christian belief it is NOT Christian teaching!
    Teaching that the heavenly Father came to earth and had physical, sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary; Is NOT a Christian teaching!
    Teaching that all men must pass through mortality in human bodies before they can reach godhood. Yet their third, separate god, called the Holy Ghost, has not yet received a mortal body, even though he is considered to be another god; Is a contradiction!

    Tell me this is NOT Mormon teaching... The three separate gods who rule our universe are finite in power—they sustain and govern only a tiny portion of all that exists.
    Jane.Doe I don't make this up... Joseph Smith taught that faithful Mormon men can ascend to divinity. In the King Follett Discourse, Joseph Smith said, “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same. And when I get to my kingdom [godhood], I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.”

    Jane.Doe Christian belief is far different then Mormon teaching! I hear what you said, do you hear/read what I point out; you cannot deny! Your god is a different god from the Christian God!
     
  2. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    @Dogknox20, to be blunt: you've done a great job continuing to ignore explanations and copy/pasting strawman misrepresentations.

    Where this goes is your choice:
    1) You can continue to copy/pasting these misrepresentations trying to tell a "Mormon" what "Mormons believe" over and over again, and I'll just roll my eyes.
    2) You can stop, and spend the time to listen to learn what others actually believe.
     
  3. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    adrian009 Hello again... I am in Canada!
    Christians believe and teach, the Trinity it is a core belief!
    New Zealand is a beautiful country, I traveled the North Island!

    Jesus is God
    The Father is God
    The Holy Spirit is God
    One God three persons!

    God is love, God is perfect, God gave himself us for us so we could have eternal life!
    God became part of his own creation!
    adrian009 Jesus destroyed death on the cross, he rose again to restore life! I will live forever eternally because I have Jesus inside of me; I cannot die as long as I stay united to Jesus!
     
  4. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Jane.Doe I read your post.... What your god is is not what the Christian God is.. as I pointed out!

    One God: never will there be more gods each in charge of their own worlds! I believe the inspired words of God found in the scriptures! I reject the words of Joseph Smith as you will clearly see!

    John 17:3 Jesus addresses his Father, saying, “And this is eternal life, that they know you—the only true God.”

    Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me
    .

    Jane.Doe Did you see it? Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me
    .
     
  5. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    @Dogknox20 , you're arguing against a strawman that no one actually believes.

    Rather members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe in ONE God. Multiple divine persons, but ONE God.

    The core of this is stating the central fact that Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons, but one God. That is jointly believed by Catholic and LDS Christians. Neither of us are modulists. Both groups believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all knowing, powerful, glorious, good, divine, eternal, etc.

    There is difference in beliefs in the mechanics of how 3 divine persons are 1 God, but talking about that needs to come after the above.
     
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  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I couldn't possibly have said it better myself, Jane. It's always so amusing to have someone try to tell me what I believe, as if they know more about my religious beliefs than I do myself. Better still is when they are so lazy that they resort to quoting out-of-context statements taken from an anti-Mormon website. Oddly enough, I have come to expect these kinds of tactics from evangelical Protestants. Catholics are generally not so threatened by other people's beliefs that they feel they must attempt to undercut someone else's position in order to make their own position look good.

    I've been considering responding to Dogknox, but something tells me it would be a complete waste of my time. Some people would prefer to believe the worst about others than to try to understand what they actually do believe and why. After over 10 years on this forum, I've developed a pretty good sense of who's willing to listen and learn, and who isn't.
     
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  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Adrian. Personally, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God and therefore uniquely qualified to reconcile mankind to their Father in Heaven. His work and His glory are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I believe we are all sons and daughters of the same Father and that He wants nothing more than to see us united in the unconditional love He has for all of us. And when I say, "all of us," I don't just mean, all Mormons, all Christians or all believers in the Abrahamic God. I mean ALL OF US. Even those who died having never heard of Jesus Christ will, according to my belief, ultimately have every opportunity to understand His role in their salvation and to fully embrace His teachings.
     
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  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    What's to deny? Paul acknowledged that "...though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)... to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." That is precisely what we believe. In the event that you are inclined to counter this argument by saying, "Oh, but all other gods are 'false gods'," may I remind you that throughout the Old Testament, God the Father is described as the "God of gods." That certainly would make him greater far than if He were merely the "God of men." If all other beings "that are called gods" (in heaven, too, mind you, not just on earth) are "false gods," you're going to have to concede that God is the "God of false gods." I don't believe He is and I suspect that you don't either. If God is the "God of gods," that certainly would make him greater far than if He were merely the "God of men."

    So who are these other gods mentioned numerous times in the Bible? Sometimes they actually are "false gods." Sometimes they are not. Psalm 95:3 says, "For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." If God is "a great God" and his relationship to "all [other] gods" is that of being their King, you can't really accuse us of believing something the Bible doesn't explicitly teach. And if you are going to deny that God is "a great King above all gods," you are denying what the Bible says in favor of what your Church teaches.

    So who are these other gods? We have no idea. We only know that they exist because the Bible tells us they do. It tells us they are subject to the Almighty God, the first person of what you call "the Trinity" and what Jane and I call "the Godhead." They have absolutely NOTHING to do with us. There may be many that "are called gods," but they had nothing to do with the creation of our universe and nothing to do with us. To us Mormons, "there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." We worship only Him. We pray to only Him. We honor only Him. Understood?
     
  9. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Jane.Doe & Katzpur with all respect you make a statement with nothing to back them up! Post the scripture otherwise all you have is opinion!
    I know you will once again reject my posts because you cannot argue with the facts!
    You said.. Multiple divine persons, but ONE God. BUT you ignore the fact that your Mormon God was at first NOT perfect! The Christian God is Perfect always is!
    You do NOT admit "Your Mormon god (the father) was at one time a man!"
    Clearly your Mormon god is NOT the Christian God!
    John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    You can say all you want but saying something and PROVING it are two different things.. You don't fool me!
    Jane.Doe You believe in one God but your god is not the same God as the Christian God!
    The Christian God always was, always is, and always will be; NEVER EVER did my Christian God address Lucifer as his son!

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    NEVER EVER was my Christian God (the Father) first a man before he became a God!

    Joseph Smith said... "that the true Church, having died out completely shortly after it began, was to be restored by Smith, the great apostasy foretold in the Bible had destroyed Christ’s Church "!
    Scriptures' refute what Smith preached!
    Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
    Matthew 28:20 and teach them to do everything I have told you. I will be with you always, even until the end of the world.
    Jane.Doe & Katzpur "Until the end of the world"! This means Jesus was started with his Church and he remains to this day with his One Holy Church! It means Joseph Smith was wrong!

    John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
    Jane.Doe & Katzpur Be with you FOREVER! This means the guide is still with the One Church Jesus established on ROCK! It means Joseph Smith was wrong!

    John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
    1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

    Jane.Doe Jesus being God would know if his Church was going to fail.... Joseph Smith was WRONG! Jesus tells Christians his Church will never fail! AS IF...
    Jane.Doe & Katzpur
    as if Satan somehow overpowered God and Satan took the body of Jesus from Jesus?! As Smith and Satan want you to believe!
     
  10. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Katzpur God the Father is described as the "God of gods." in Context it is to teach the Jews there is no other God but God "I am"!
    Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me
    .

    You go down a rabbit trail... Christians and for that Matter Jews believe in ONE God always have!
    Katzpur what do you read (above) Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

    Christians have ALWAYS believed in One God!
    Ignatius of Antioch is a Christian he wrote this in A.D. 110
    “The prophets, who were men of God, lived according to Jesus Christ. For that reason they were persecuted, inspired as they were by his grace to convince the disobedient that there is one God, who manifested himself through his son, Jesus Christ, who is his Word proceeding from silence, and who was in all respects pleasing to him that sent him” (Letter to the Magnesians 8:1 [circa A.D. 110]).

    Irenaeus is a Christian
    For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [inter A.D. 180-199]).

    Irenaeus
    “Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is creator, he alone is father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist” (Ibid. 2:1:1).
     
  11. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    Actually Katzpur started this off by quoting scripture. I also stated that things were stated all over scripture. But if you want a list of verses:
    • not as I will, but as thou wilt, Matt. 26:39.
    • baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19 (3 Ne. 11:25).
    • called the Son of the Highest, Luke 1:32.
    • Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove, Luke 3:22.
    • Son can do nothing … but what he seeth the Father do, John 5:19.
    • Father that sent me beareth witness of me, John 8:18.
    • I and my Father are one, John 10:30.
    • believe the works … that the Father is in me, John 10:38.
    • a voice from heaven, saying, I have … glorified it, John 12:28.
    • my Father is greater than I, John 14:28.
    • that they might know thee the only true God, John 17:3.
    • That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, John 17:21 (D&C 35:2).
    • I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, John 20:17.
    • being by the right hand of God exalted, Acts 2:33.
    • saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55.
    • not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, Acts 17:29.
    • even his eternal power and Godhead, Rom. 1:20.
    • to us there is but one God, 1 Cor. 8:6.
    • Christ, who is the image of God, 2 Cor. 4:4.
    • I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord, Eph. 3:14.
    • image of the invisible God, the firstborn, Col. 1:15.
    • dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col. 2:9.
    • Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Heb. 1:2.
    • three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, 1 Jn. 5:7.
    • doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, 2 Ne. 31:21.
    • they are one God, Mosiah 15:4 (3 Ne. 11:36; D&C 20:28).
    • arraigned before the bar of Christ … and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, Alma 11:44.
    • sing … unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, Morm. 7:7.
    • grace of God the Father … Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, Ether 12:41.
    • we saw him, even on the right hand of God, D&C 76:23.
    • whereon was seated the Father and the Son, D&C 137:3.
    • We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, A of F 1:1.
    @Dogknox20 : strawman arguments are by their very nature going to be ignored. If you want to have a real conversation and show yourself as a disciple of Christ, you need to take the time to actually understand what others believe.
     
    #191 Jane.Doe, Jul 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Dogknox, I have nothing more to say to you. You may indeed be a Christian, but you certainly don't act like one. It wouldn't matter what I were to say; you are convinced that I am not a Christian, and nothing is going to change that. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but I don't need your approval. I don't need your acceptance. Your opinion of me doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. As a matter of fact, I believe Mother Teresa put it quite well when she said: "For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It never was between you and them anyway." God knows who I am and that's all that matters. I have no interest in trying to have a further dialogue with you. There are plenty of other posters here who are respectful and courteous, even when we may disagree as to certain doctrines. I will not be responding to any more of your posts.
     
    #192 Katzpur, Jul 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
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  13. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Hello Katzpur & Jane.Doe I point out just for you the many errors found in your religion... I am not making this up this is historical fact!
    It's all there, your argument is NOT with me it's with scripture, history and LOGIC!
    Katzpur What Christians have always believed is DIFFERENT then what the LDS teach!

    For example, Joseph Smith and his associates asserted that one Professor Charles Anthon of Columbia University verified the Egyptian characters on the golden plates. However, this same professor wrote a rebuttal letter soon after, saying that he never did any such thing and had, in fact, found the characters to be a hoax. In addition, many verses in the Mormon scriptures have been changed over the years, as the church leaders attempt to cover up something embarrassing in their past and to defend themselves against criticism.

    One of the many areas in which Mormons fall short of saving faith is their belief that God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). This directly contradicts the Bible, which states that God has existed in His position as God of the universe from eternity past (Revelation 1:8; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:15–16; Psalm 102:24–27). God was never a man (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9) and is the holy and powerful Creator of all things (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). Mormons also believe that they themselves can attain the status of gods in the afterlife through their works here on earth (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). However, no man can ever become like God (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 43:10–11; 44:6; 45:21–22), despite what the serpent told Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:5).

    Mormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547; Articles of Faith, p. 35; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372). It is essential to Christian faith that Jesus is one with God and that He is God’s only begotten Son who became flesh (John 1:1, 14; John 3:16). Only Jesus’ oneness with God would have allowed Him to live a sinless, blameless life (Hebrews 7:26). And only Jesus Christ was able to pay the price for our sins by His death on the cross (Romans 4:25; Acts 4:12).


    Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation. The Bible is very clear on this point, stating that good works can never earn the way to heaven (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5) and that faith in Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation (John 10:9; 11:25; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Salvation by grace is incompatible with salvation by human works (Romans 11:6).
    Katzpur I could not say this any better....
    Sadly, many in the Mormon Church are unaware of the religion’s shady past, amended scriptures, and even the full doctrine of their church. Many Mormons who have discovered these things have left the church and come to a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, we must treat Mormons with love and understand that they are among those deceived by Satan himself (1 Peter 5:8). Satan’s goal is to distort the truth, produce false assurance of salvation, and extend a deceptive hope of godhood (2 Corinthians 4:4).

    Katzpur & Jane.Doe THINK... Joseph Smith claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ (Articles of Faith, p. 35) who told him that all churches and their creeds were an abomination (1 Nephi 13:28; Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith – History 1:18, 19). Joseph Smith then set out to "restore true Christianity" and claimed his church to be the “only true church on earth” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670; 1 Nephi 14:10).

    Katzpur & Jane.Doe The question is this... Why do you want to be Christian when all churches and their creeds are an abomination ?!
    Jesus established ONE Church 2000 years ago and it was not the LDS church! Christians believe the words of Jesus! "I am with you ALWAYS!"

    I say no more!
     
  14. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
     
  15. Jane.Doe

    Jane.Doe Active Member

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    You and your blindly regurgitated koolaid have fun.

    I’m going to keeping following my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  16. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I have relatives in Canada but never been there. I’d like to travel to North America sometime. Great you have been to New Zealand. I’m in the South Island.

    I’d encourage you to read and comment on a couple of posts (#165 & #166) contributed by your fellow Catholic.

    Its not easy to discuss and debate religion. Vouthon does a good job of it. Its not so much about what is said, rather how its said.
     
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  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, thank God for that. Let's just hope you have enough self-control to keep that promise. :p
     
    #197 Katzpur, Jul 13, 2021
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  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    My dad always used to say it was a talent to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Some people simply don't want to bother trying. I figure it's their loss. We can all learn from one another and when we are willing to take the time to understand not only what other people believe, but the reasons behind those beliefs, both sides benefit. Just telling other people they're wrong accomplishes nothing, but as I said before, civil, respectful dialogue doesn't just happen. It takes effort and some people flat out aren't interested.
     
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  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    V'Imru Amen (ואמרוּ אָמֵן)
    and let is all say "amen"
     
  20. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    I post from Christian websites; Clearly what I did post was NOT my personal opinion that the Mormon religion is NOT Christian! Clearly they (the Mormon) trusts in a different God then the Christian God!
    The Christian God does not have a son named Lucifer!
    The Christian God (Father) was never ever a man, never ever having flesh and bones!
    The God of the Christian did NOT have sexual Intercourse with Mary!
    The God of the Christian always was, always is and always will be!
    The Christian God established a Church two thousand years ago...Promising it will never fail that he would ALWAYS be with her sending the Holy Spirit as guide to her FOREVER!
    The Mormon religion teaches the Bible is insufficient.
    The Mormon teach they are the only true Christians; Then they reject any idea of not being included with the rest of the Christians in the world!
    The Mormon teach they are the only true Church to teach this they MUST reject the scriptures... Matthew 16:18
    Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth... History and Logic proves him wrong! Virtually no archaeological and anthropological evidence supports the Book of Mormon. Why not? Because it’s fiction. When Christians want to read scripture, they turn to the Bible.
    They teach they can become gods! Isaiah 44:8Yea, there is no God; I know not any.” (Deuteronomy 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isaiah 43:10-11; 45:21-23)
    etc
    etc
    I say it again... "To be Christian" you MUST believe what Christians teach and believe.. The Mormon is NOT Christian!!
     
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