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Featured John 1:12 and our choice.

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by e.r.m., Feb 27, 2016.

  1. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    John 1:12 KJV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    John 1:12 NASB But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    John 1:12 NIV Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God---

    Juan 1:12 RV60 Mas a todos los que le recibieron, a los que creen en su nombre, les dio potestad de ser hechos hijos de Dios;


    To those who received/believed in his Jesus's name, God gave the right/power/authority to become children of God.

    Some believe that God does it ALL in salvation, that man need not even believe in Jesus for God to save them. They use the verse Ephesians 2:9 that faith is the gift of God, to say that mankind is given by God no say or decision at all in their salvation. John goes against that.

    John 1:12 shows a group of people (since it's talking in past tense) to whom God did give the decision making power in their salvation. God gave this authority/power to "choose" to be saved. It goes to show that once we accept He's from God, and give ear to what Jesus has to say (a.k.a. - receive him), then we can, like the others, have say in our eternity. We can move toward getting saved.

    God/Jesus did most of it, He doesn't do it ALL. He gives us our part.
     
    #1 e.r.m., Feb 27, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
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  2. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    So, what is it you wish to debate?
     
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  3. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Want to see people's take on John 1:12 in its original context, instead of out of context as support for "Accepting Jesus as personal savior". Let's discuss what is actually written.
     
    #3 e.r.m., Feb 28, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  4. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Ok, but you know this is a debate forum and it seems to me that to startt a debate we need a premise to debate. What is yours?
     
  5. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    I started this on another forum and it's off and running.
    Ok, I propose that those who believe that God does everything in our salvation are wrong, based on this verse, and other verses, but focusing on this one for now.
     
  6. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Belief does not save you, Jesus does. Jesus will not save you if you do not believe though. Ponder Matthew 7:21-23.
     
  7. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Agreed. Well stated.
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    The hour is late and time is short, so I must be brief and leave you to locate the verses yourself. For that I apologize.

    No man can come to Jesus UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM.
    Faith, not of yourself less any man boast, but the gift from God.
    While we were yet DEAD in our sins ... (How much does a dead man contribute to his Resurection?)

    You needed to start one verse sooner in John and see that the contrast is not between those who CHOSE to believe and those who CHOSE not to believe, but rather a simple statement of fact that some Jews (his people) believed and some did not.

    They did not believe, because they were not HIS sheep ... Jesus did not say that they were not His sheep because they didn't believe.

    God Bless.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I see no substantive difference between the two verses. Both are gifts and like all gifts it must be received.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I don't believe that verse settles the issue but this one serves well:
    Mark 1:14 ¶ Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
    15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that depends. A cessation of will does not necessarily require a belief in salvation but Jesus will save anyway whether one believes one can be saved or not but if a person is unwilling to be saved Jesus will not interfere with free will.
     
  12. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    I only listed one verse.
     
  13. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    This is a good one, yes.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Circular reasoning is just so darn cute and convenient. :D
     
  15. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Why do you believe John 1:12 is a circular argument?
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I don't. I believe that dependence on John is circular.
     
  17. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Explain, please. Sorry, not getting your point.
     
    #17 e.r.m., Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  18. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
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    What does it mean to believe in someone's name?
     
  19. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    I think it just means believing in the significance of who he is.
     
  20. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
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    You think? Isn't this such important matter that we should know for sure?

    Imagine that you're in a machine. You're told the machine will kill you in some terrible way sometime in the future. You don't know when or how. But you're also told that "If you believe in the knob turning, you will be saved." Now, you see some knobs, you turn them, and nothing happens. You don't know if you're saved for sure because you still could be killed some time in the future. So you guess that perhaps the weird phrase "believe in" means something more than just turning the knobs, so you start thinking and believing really hard in the knobs and that you imagine yourself turning them, and then turn them, and still nothing happens. So... isn't it important to know exactly what the phrase means so we can be sure that we're doing the right thing to be saved?
     
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