• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

John 1:1

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for your informative contribution @Clear

Some are so blinded by their belief in a triune god that they cannot see that translation errors cover up the fact the when the scriptures were written, there was no belief in a trinity.....not in Judism and certainly not in Christianity. This is a Catholic doctrine adopted from pagan concepts, centuries after Jesus' death....but completely missing from God's word. Jesus himself identified his Father as "the only true God". (John 17:3)

When the Reformation took place, Protestants took their core beliefs from Catholicism with them and formed equally misinformed churches, fashioned on what they wanted to believe. If Christ returned tomorrow, who would he claim as his own? (Matthew 7:21-23) In the thousands of "Christian" sects, none really speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

The devil's stock in trade is deception and he has succeeded well in establishing his empire of false religion in the world. This is how he takes worship away from Jehovah and siphons it off for himself. All worship that doesn't go to the true God, goes to the only other creature in existence who craves it, by default.

His success can only be measured in the number of ways he has succeeded in fooling mankind into following other gods. Even in Christianity, the foretold "weeds" are worshiping a foreign god. Any wonder Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Trinities of gods are found throughout the pagan religions of the world, but not ever mentioned in the Bible.

Blessings to you.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deeje, thank you for the kind words.

My comments in post #60 applied to a very specific point regarding the translation of John 1:1 in the Jehovahs Witnesses’ NWT.

I think that many religionists who disagree on theology are doing the best that they can and are to be honored for any attempt toward good behavior and accumulating truth. While I have disagreements with modern Catholic Theology and protestant theology (and with J.W. theology), it doesn’t deter me from honoring them all for their correct ideas and for their good and righteous intentions and good actions.

I think all of us (myself included) have some errors in our personal theology and I assume that many other individuals are simply doing the best they can at trying to understand the nature of God and what he and we are doing inside mortality.

While I believe the early Christians were correct that the three important cosmic Characters are God the Father; the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit (i.e. a trinity of important individuals exists), I think the early descriptions of the three as separate individuals is more correct than the later descriptions of them as the same individual.

In any case and whatever is correct Deeje, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful.


Clear
φυφυφυω
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
While I believe the early Christians were correct that the three important cosmic Characters are God the Father; the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and his operations and effect on mankind (i.e. a trinity of important individuals exists), I think the early descriptions of the three as separate individuals is more correct than the later descriptions of them as the same individual.
As one who definitely is not a trinitarian, I'm not too sure of the above.

First of all, the "Holy Spirit" might be what shows up in the Tanakh as "God's spirit". Secondly, those powers that show up in the gospels and epistles in regards to Jesus go well beyond anything we see in the Tanakh about any of the prophets, including even Moses. Also, the issue of "the messiah", although highly anticipated, probably would have no bearing on so many of the attributes attributed to Jesus. Yes, some of these attributes may well have been highly exaggerated, but even that would reflect that his earliest followers found something in him of divine proportion. This should come as no surprise since we saw much the same happen when Gandhi was assassinated, whereas many of his followers put him right up there with Brahma as being a manifestation. However, Gandhi wrote prolifically and really shot that down himself.

Bart Ehrman, professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina and who's pretty much an agnostic as I am, does what I believe is an excellent job covering this is his book "How Jesus Became God".
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My comments in post #60 applied to a very specific point regarding the translation of John 1:1 in the Jehovahs Witnesses’ NWT.

I understand, and thank you again for recognizing the point that many do not wish to acknowledge. To dismantle John 1:1 was the first thing I did when I started studying the Bible. It never made logical sense to me and when it was explained, I could see it clearly.

I think that many religionists who disagree on theology are doing the best that they can and are to be honored for any attempt toward good behavior and accumulating truth. While I have disagreements with modern Catholic Theology and protestant theology (and with J.W. theology), it doesn’t deter me from honoring them all for their good and righteous intentions and good actions.

I see the situation in the world from the Bible's perspective. I understand why we are here....what caused our alienation from our Creator....what he did to restore it....why Jesus had to die....and what we can look forward to in the future. The Bible tells me all of that in great detail. I understand that many people are believers in their own faiths and hold those beliefs for their own reasons. But I am also of the opinion that there is only one God....one truth and only one faith that is acceptable to him. I believe that he will draw only those in whom he finds the right condition of heart. Only these will receive an invitation from him to learn from the teachings of his son and join the unified ranks of Christian disciples. (John 6:44)

I think all of us (myself included) have some errors in our personal theology and I assume that many other individuals are simply doing the best they can at trying to understand the nature of God and what he and we are doing inside mortality.

As one who grew up in Christendom, I am well aware of the faults that I accepted as Bible teachings only to find that they were not Biblical at all. "Doing the best we can" is all well and good but unfortunately many have been taught that they do not need knowledge for themselves...that their pastor or priest knows it all for them. That is truly sad, as we are in the information age and those who want to bother can find all the information they need.
Informed choice is now more easily obtained than at any other time in history....ignorance is no longer an excuse. Ignorance now is by choice. :(

While I believe the early Christians were correct that the three important cosmic Characters are God the Father; the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit (i.e. a trinity of important individuals exists), I think the early descriptions of the three as separate individuals is more correct than the later descriptions of them as the same individual.

As you may know, JW's do not accept the holy spirit as a personage. We see the Father and son as a team, using the power of God's spirit to accomplish the will of the Father. We see no equality between Father and son but are still very grateful for his role in the outworking of God's purpose. We also have no belief in an immortal soul, which means that we do not believe in life after death (or before it) So there are many differences between denominations and the trinity is one very prominent one that separates us from Christendom.

In any case and whatever is correct Deeje, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful.

Thank you. I believe that we will all be where we need to be when the time comes to account to the Father for how we have used the life he has given us.....either to honor him or to offend him. He knows our heart and will judge us according to how he sees us, not necessarily how we see ourselves.

May our journeys end without disappointment.
128fs318181.gif
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deeje said : “...we are in the information age and those who want to bother can find all the information they need. Informed choice is now more easily obtained than at any other time in history....ignorance is no longer an excuse. Ignorance now is by choice.” (post #55)

IGNORANCE VS RESPONSIBILITY
I don’t know if this is an official Jehovahs Witness position or your personal opinion but I believe this position is quite naïve and provincial and unjust. I think the earlier Christian models and doctrines were more rational and more just than this model.

Ignorance IS certainly an excuse in that a just God cannot punish an individual for non-compliance to a principle God did not give the individual access to nor awareness of. Historically, there have been millions and millions of individuals who were born and died without ever hearing of the Christian message.

Even nowadays there are millions who live in 3rd world conditions and subcontinents such as Africa that do not have exposure to any Christian message. Even in “Christian” nations, there are thousands of infants born that live and die before they are old enough to be exposed to and understand any form of Christianity. None of these are ignorant by choice. They simply never got to choose to accept or reject information they were not exposed to.

A just God cannot condemn ANY of these individuals to any form of punishment for not accepting religious information he did not give them adequate chance to be exposed to; to understand; and then to accept or reject.

What IS the official Jehovahs Witness model for what happens to individuals who are born, live and die without having the opportunity of exposure to true theology?

Clear
σεεινεω
 
Last edited:

J2hapydna

Active Member
Thank you all very much. I learned a lot. It seems that this verse can be read both ways. If the reader already believes in the Trinity then God otherwise a god or divine or godly.

I also read on the Internet that the Coptic Bible has the indefinite article. So it would seem the Egyptians certainly didn’t think Logos was God
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Clear I apologise for not replying to this post. For some reason, I do not get notification for all responses.
I am happy to respond now....

Ignorance IS certainly an excuse in that a just God cannot punish an individual for non-compliance to a principle God did not give the individual access to nor awareness of. Historically, there have been millions and millions of individuals who were born and died without ever hearing of the Christian message.

In order for God to punish anyone, they have to be either knowingly breaking his laws and have no desire to learn them. Those who have died in ignorance will have the benefit of a resurrection. Jesus will call both the "righteous and the unrighteous" from the same place. (John 5:28-29) The "wicked" however will not see life again. This what Jesus referred to as "gehenna". (eternal death)

In this day and age we believe that we are living in "the time of the end" and therefore a time when there will be no excuse for ignorance. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14....
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

How was the gospel (good news) going to reach the whole world? These days it is no longer dependent on physical contact in word of mouth from personal contact....though it is still the best way to preach. We have the means now to communicate with people instantly in all nations. But acceptance of the message is clearly not reaching the hearts of many.

According to the Apostle Paul...."But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

When Christ manifests himself as judge, he will bring vengeance, resulting in destruction of only two categories of people...."those who don't know God" because they choose not to know, and those who "don't obey" what Jesus taught. I believe that describes a good portion of the world's population. That is why "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Even "many" who identify as "Christians" will be rejected on the second ground. (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus likened this period to the days of Noah. (Matthew 24:37-39) How many survived the flood? The same level of wickedness is seen in all the world today. God must act as he promised.

Even nowadays there are millions who live in 3rd world conditions and subcontinents such as Africa that do not have exposure to any Christian message. Even in “Christian” nations, there are thousands of infants born that live and die before they are old enough to be exposed to and understand any form of Christianity. None of these are ignorant by choice. They simply never got to choose to accept or reject information they were not exposed to.

Believe me when I tell you that Jehovah's Witnesses are active in all lands....even those where their preaching work is banned. Persecution never stopped the first Christians from spreading Christ's message, and it will not stop them today. Most people even in poor countries have access to the internet or have cell phones. God has a way of getting his message through to those he wants to invite. (John 6:44)

A just God cannot condemn ANY of these individuals to any form of punishment for not accepting religious information he did not give them adequate chance to be exposed to; to understand; and then to accept or reject.

Well after almost 2,000 years of allowing humans to ruin their way politically, religiously, socially and in every other way, I don't see them being able to offer any excuses. All who want to know God can do so....he will make sure of it. Those who don't want to know won't even try. They are already "dead" as far as God is concerned. (Ephesians 2:1)

What IS the official Jehovahs Witness model for what happens to individuals who are born, live and die without having the opportunity of exposure to true theology?

There is no injustice with God...if we thought for one moment that he would not act justly towards all, we would not want to worship such a God. But he has proven to us that human life is precious to him, but at the same time, he has no tolerance of a rebellious or lazy spirit in us. He wants our obedience and whole-souled service. Half-hearted just won't cut it.

He is seeking and selecting the citizens for his incoming Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44) He has already chosen its rulers, and now he is finalizing his choices for its citizens. There is no injustice, but his decisions are not based on sentiment.....they are firmly based on the condition of our own heart and mind and our willing service to others. God knows us way before we know him.

Apologies again for the delay in responding.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Clear said : “Historically, there have been millions and millions of individuals who were born and died without ever hearing of the Christian message.
Even nowadays there are millions who live in 3rd world conditions and subcontinents such as Africa that do not have exposure to any Christian message. Even in “Christian” nations, there are thousands of infants born that live and die before they are old enough to be exposed to and understand any form of Christianity. None of these are ignorant by choice. They simply never got to choose to accept or reject information they were not exposed to.
A just God cannot condemn ANY of these individuals to any form of punishment for not accepting religious information he did not give them adequate chance to be exposed to; to understand; and then to accept or reject.
What IS the official Jehovahs Witness model for what happens to individuals who are born, live and die without having the opportunity of exposure to true theology?



Deeje – None of your comments answered the questions I asked. There are those who have lived in 3rd world conditions and died without ever hearing the Christian message. They did no choose to be ignorant, thy were born ignorant of authentic Christian theology and could not gain the knowledge and understanding you say they must have but "refused".

This is not just a historical phenomenon but this same thing happens nowadays. There are infants who are born and die as young children before having sufficient understanding of and ability to accept or reject authentic theology.


What is the official Jehovahs Witness position regarding what happens to these individuals?

Clear
ακδρειω
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deeje – None of your comments answered the questions I asked. There are those who have lived in 3rd world conditions and died without ever hearing the Christian message. They did no choose to be ignorant, thy were born ignorant of authentic Christian theology and could not gain the knowledge and understanding. You say they must have but refused.

No, in the first part of my reply I said....
"In order for God to punish anyone, they have to be either knowingly breaking his laws and have no desire to learn them. Those who have died in ignorance will have the benefit of a resurrection. Jesus will call both the "righteous and the unrighteous" from the same place. (John 5:28-29) The "wicked" however will not see life again. This what Jesus referred to as "gehenna". (eternal death)"

I'm sorry if that was not evident. There is no one who dies in ignorance who will not be given a second chance at life in the resurrection back to life on earth. Since both the "righteous and the unrighteous" are called from the same place, we can be sure that those who never had a chance to learn will be given that opportunity during the 1,000 years of Messiah's reign.

This is not just a historical phenomenon but this same thing happens nowadays. There are infants who are born and die as young children before having sufficient understanding of and ability to accept or reject authentic theology.

Romans 2:14-15...
"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused."

For those who did not have an opportunity to learn about the Christ through no fault on their part, God will judge them by what is in their own heart and by the exercise of their God-given conscience.

However, as far as children are concerned, God holds parents as solely responsible for the teaching of their minor children. In homes where only one parent is a Christian, the onus is on that parent to teach their child God's ways and standards.

The apostle Paul tells the married Christian: The unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.” (1 Corinthians 7:14)

So if the spouse and children of a religiously divided couple are "sanctified" in relation only to the believer, then what of the children of two unbelievers? As an example we can refer back to the flood of Noah's day. Did the children of the people who perished in the flood receive any special dispensation on account of their age? If the answer is no, then that is what we can expect again. (Matthew 24:37-39)

What is the official Jehovahs Witness position regarding what happens to these individuals?

Since God has appointed Jesus as judge of all, we leave the judging to him. But scripturally, we are guided by what God's word has to say on these matters. We trust that there will be no injustice with the Creator.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, in the first part of my reply I said....
"In order for God to punish anyone, they have to be either knowingly breaking his laws and have no desire to learn them. Those who have died in ignorance will have the benefit of a resurrection. Jesus will call both the "righteous and the unrighteous" from the same place. (John 5:28-29) The "wicked" however will not see life again. This what Jesus referred to as "gehenna". (eternal death)"

I'm sorry if that was not evident. There is no one who dies in ignorance who will not be given a second chance at life in the resurrection back to life on earth. Since both the "righteous and the unrighteous" are called from the same place, we can be sure that those who never had a chance to learn will be given that opportunity during the 1,000 years of Messiah's reign.

Hi Deeje – Thank you for elucidating your sentence. I missed it.

I am not quite sure I understand you regarding the millions (perhaps billions) who lived and died without hearing or understanding the Christian message over the entire history of the earth. Is the official Jehovahs’ Witness position that these individuals will be given another chance (“a second chance” in your words) at life at some point? Is this correct? If so, I think this theory can restore some justice to your original claim. Will these individuals in second lifetime have a physical body (i.e. re-incarnated)?

In this model, will the infants who died be allowed to live another life and grow up sufficiently old to hear the message and then be able choose to accept or reject it in this second reincarnation?

Will the retarded in this life, be mentally whole in this second life they are given, such that they are able to hear and understand and then accept or reject this hearing of the gospel in their second reincarnated lifetime?

Do I understand your mechanism of “second chance” correctly?

Thanks in advance for information.


Clear
ακσενεω
 
Last edited:

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?
It's the verse people see as the Word being Jesus, then being God the Father. I disagree.
The NWT of the Holy Scriptures redefines "a god" to see Jesus as NOT the Father. I disagree.
Word is Truth. Jesus said he was truth. Man never had the truth. Every spoken word by Jesus was truth. The Gospel (message) is the truth. The truth came as flesh. When it completed giving us it's knowledge, it needed the flesh no more.

It was "truth in flesh" (or the Word of the Father) and why Jesus told us to eat his flesh.

Word or Truth will work the same in John 1. But Truth takes it from a physical perspective into a spiritual one.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am not quite sure I understand your. Regarding the millions (perhaps billions) who lived and died without hearing or understanding the Christian message over the entire history of the earth, the authentic Jehovahs’ Witness position is that they will be given another chance (“a second chance” in your words) at some point? Is this correct? If so, I think this theory can restory justice to your original claim.

Perhaps I can explain a little further.....there is no injustice I assure you.

In the 'big picture' we see human creation as God's crowning achievement...the last of his creative works.....mortal beings of flesh and blood who were given God's attributes and qualities. They were to become his representatives on this planet as caretakers and zookeepers....only the animals would have no cages.

Humans alone were granted free will as part of the package of being "made in God's image". Even though they were mortal, God provided the means for them to live eternally on earth on the provision that they keep one stated law. They were not to partake of a specific tree in the garden that God had made his own, under penalty of death. The fruit of every other tree was available to them, so that this tree held no special interest for them as food because they had more than they needed already. God's provisions were generous and bountiful.

Then a rebel spirit masquerading as a serpent entered into the picture and began to question the woman about "that" tree. He planted seeds of doubt in the woman's mind and so out of self interest, she broke God's command....and she did not die right away, so she figured that the snake must have been right. When Adam returned, she offered the fruit to him. He was persuaded to eat as well and as soon as the deed was done, they discovered a strange feeling that came over them....one they had not experienced before...shame at their nakedness. Sin had begun to take its toll already. God's response was to evict them from the garden and to bar access to the only means they had available to keep them alive....."the tree of life". Angels barred the way to that tree probably right up to the time of Noah, when God dramatically changed earth's landscape in a global flood.

What did their actions mean for their children? Kicked out of the paradise that God had prepared for them, life outside the garden was hard work. From eating of the abundance of fruit, they now had to work for their food. Made doubly hard now because God cursed the ground and eating bread meant planting and harvesting grain in soil that produced very little yield. This was entirely their own fault, but their children were born into this circumstance through no fault of their own.

We are prone to sin because of a genetic inheritance that we cannot fix. But right away in the garden, God stepped in with a solution to their dilemma.....Genesis 3:15 foretold a seed who would come and put everything right. A redeemer would pay the price and set them free from the curse of sin and death, but only after being dealt a 'heel' wound by God's adversary.

Since God knows that humans are prone to sin, he does not judge us too harshly. But is eager to give all humanity a chance to attain to the perfect physical condition with which they were originally created. Adam lost that for his children and Christ came to get it back by paying the debt.

No one who has lived or died in the history of mankind will be treated unfairly by the most loving God.
If Christ will resurrect "both the righteous and the unrighteous" after he has established his Kingdom on earth, then we can rest assured that adults and children alike will be given a second chance to get things right with God.
Those who lived and died in ignorance will not be condemned but will have a thousand years to prove themselves. Revelation 20:6 speaks of those who will rule with Christ in heaven for the full term of the Kingdom's rule, acting as rulers and priests for millions of earthly subjects.

Those alive on earth at the time of the last judgment however, will not be shown as much compassion. Why? Because we are living in a judgment period right now.....the "sheep and the goats" are being separated as we speak and once their designation is confirmed, there is no changing of their status. (Matthew 25:31-46)

Just as those on board the ark in Noah's day had no control over the time when God closed the door, so the door of opportunity will be closed when Christ appears as judge of all mankind. Just as Noah warned the people of his day about the approaching cataclysm, so God's servants are giving due warning to all, but according to Jesus, it will also fall on deaf ears. Just as the people ignored Noah's warning back then, they will ignore the warning again for all the same reasons. (Matthew 24:37-39)

In this model, will the infants who died be allowed to live another life and grow up sufficiently old to hear the message and then be able choose to accept or reject it in this second reincarnation?

It isn't a reincarnation, but a full bodily resurrection, just as Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the grave....and yes there is no reason why God will not allow all children that opportunity along with their parents.

Will the retarded in this life, be mentally whole in this second life they are given, such that they are able to hear and understand and then accept or reject this hearing of the gospel in their second reincarnated lifetime?

Absolutely. God will not bring disabled people back to his new earth. All were healed of their sicknesses and disabilities by Jesus and his apostles, which was a foregleam of what was to come. Such disabilities are the result of genetic imperfection due to Adam's sin.....God knows the heart of all the living as well, not just what appears on the outside. He also knows what that person would have done without their disability. We can be sure that there will not be any injustice done to anyone.

Do I understand your mechanism of “second chance” correctly?

All the resurrections performed by Jesus were a full return of life to the deceased, and a reunion with their overjoyed family. This is what we anticipate when all loved ones are reunited in the new world to come. I have so many to welcome back. :)

I know that LDS' have a very different slant on things, but this is what we believe.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
REGARDING THOSE WHO DIED WITHOUT EXPOSURE TO AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY - THE JEHOVAHS' WITNESS MODEL

Clear
asked : “In this model, will the infants who died be allowed to live another life and grow up sufficiently old to hear the message and then be able choose to accept or reject it in this second reincarnation?” (post #71)

Deeje explained “It isn't a reincarnation, but a full bodily resurrection, just as Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the grave....and yes there is no reason why God will not allow all children that opportunity along with their parents. “ (post #74)


Hi Deeje – Thank you for the added information.

My usage of the word re-incarnation was not a reference to a “re-birth” of an individual spirit/character/personality into a new type of body or animal, but rather I was referring to the re-creation of a prior body that had existed in the past.

In your example, Christ raised the recent dead whose bodies had not decomposed. My reference also concerned millions of individuals who have not heard the Christian message in ages past whose bodies will have long since, decomposed.

Re-incarnation in my reference simply refers to a new version of something from the past. In this case, if these individuals are to receive theology AFTER a resurrection, then a new body will need to be re-created for these individuals and they will need to have the same prior soul/character/personality attached to that new body.

1) So, my understanding is that you are retracting your prior statement that all who live in our day and age are ignorant by choice.

2) And my understanding is that there is a mechanism in Jehovahs Witness theology by which individuals who lived and died ignorant of authentic theology are given a “second chance” to hear and accept authentic theology. (In this case, it is actually their “first chance” since they did not have a chance when they lived in their mortal life.) Is this correct?

3) And, If I understand you correctly, their chance to hear the gospel will occur AFTER a resurrection into new bodies and during a time that all individuals will have exposure to authentic theology?

4) And, if I understand you correctly, infants will be given new, different bodies that are more mature and able to understand and make choices, OR will the infants be resurrected as infants who, presumably, will be raised by someone to this degree of maturity? Is this correct?

Thanks again for the information Deeje.

Clear
νεειακω
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
AWESOME! @Clear

According to the Jehovah's Witness's theology, young people of parents who reject the message of the Jehovah's Witnesses will all die along with their parents, even if they are too young to hear and understand the JW message.

If you ask a JW about the specific circumstances of the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ, they will say that it isn't for them to know now, but they trust that Jehovah will provide the food at the proper time. For instance, the men they believe in now who are all members of their governing body should be in Heaven with Christ at that time. The question is; Who will JWs obey THEN?
The other question is; If a baby dies and after that, his parents refuse the good news according to the JWs, who will raise the child in Paradise?

They say they will find all that out later. But, on the other hand, they preach that for us, later will be too late.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?

I am not entirely sure which one is correct but........
near death experiencer Aurora Ray was shown that there are 14 Elohim.....
seven male and seven female......
the Elohim spoke the words:

Genesis 1:26


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Aurora Ray was shown that one of the 14 Elohim incarnate into each and every human being that is conceived.........

The 14 Elohim correspond with:

Revelation 1:4

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace beunto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"

What Aurora Ray was show would answer a lot of questions......
for example.... why the ArchAngels Michael and Gabriel bowed before Adam.....
but Iblis / Lucifer refused to do so...... and led his one third of the angels to start a revolt.....


Satan in the Holy Quran

Here are some of the Quranic verses that make the boundaries of the portrait more defined:



And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis (Satan): he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. (2: 34)

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down. (God) said: “What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?” He said: “I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.” (God) said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures).” (7: 11–13)
Behold! We said to the angels: “Prostrate unto Adam”: They prostrated except Iblis (Satan): He said, “Shall I prostrate to one whom Thou didst create from clay?” He said: “Seest Thou? This is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!” (17: 61–62)

Going through these verses would suffice to draw a clear picture of Satan’s character. It is that of an arrogant creature that thinks highly of his physical fibre, so much so that he rebels against the will of God when he perceives that it clashes with the intrinsic conceited tendency of his character. Not only this, he seems bent on facing the consequences of his rebellion and not bothering about his fate, only to keep his “pride”.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?
The Greek is right. And the JW Bible adds the word "a". So, they make it into two gods. God the Father and another "god". This is nonsense and so obviously unbiblical that it's ridiculous. Jesus said "thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve"

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?



Jesus clearly teaches at John 17:3--The one who sent him = the ONLY TRUE GOD= Father

Paul as well 1Corinthians 8:6--There is one God to all-the FATHER.

The JW,s are correct.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The Greek is right. And the JW Bible adds the word "a". So, they make it into two gods. God the Father and another "god". This is nonsense and so obviously unbiblical that it's ridiculous. Jesus said "thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve"

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)



This makes it into more than one God= simple trinity talk--second line John 1:1--And God was with God= impossible, there is one God.
-a-wasnt written in the greek language one had to know where to put them.

And Rev 3:12--simple trinity talk--God has a God= impossible.
 
Top