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John 1:1 Discussion

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Bryan X, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    Jesus claimed to be God or declared? Which one? And would there be a difference?
     
  2. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Hear o Israel the Lord is Echad/One. And the Holy See can Add. (He thinks)
    I believe the Torah. No man may add. Elohim is one. Yeshua is the Word of Elohim, was sent as the Lamb of Elohim, Yah's Salvation/Yahoshua/Yeshua. The AV does not say Jesus said he is God. It says I and the Father are one. You nor I can't show how a man and woman become one flesh! How the Church is the body of Messiah. We will not know until the ressurection. Then we will be like Him. God may indeed be a Trinity! But the Bible does not say that. I will believe what the Bible clearly says and not what some man says it says. Yes God is one, Yahoshua is one and the Holy Spirit is one. Just as people say Body, Mind and Spirit, a triunity. But Man was made Dust and Spirit, a Nephesh/soul. The Greeks came up with the Immortal Soul, body, soul and spirit.
    God chose the Hebrew, not the Greek. Man says that God chose the Greek language for the NT, God hasn't spoken on the issue. I believe Man and his evil inclination did the chosing. Each person has free will to go in any direction he chooses, I choose the way of Torah.
     
  3. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different parts of the same entity.
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Bryan X,

    To Jesus, I imagine it was a declaration..... to those who heard it or those who don't believe, it would just be Him claiming to be God.... that's the only difference.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  5. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    But you see, we don't really know that. That's just mere speculation, that's why you "imagine" it was a declaration.

    To those who heard it and those who don't believe? What about to those who teach it(which would be MANY, MANY preachers of today)? They're always saying that Jesus claimed to be God, then they follow-up with some verses to prove it. Does this mean these preachers 'heard it' or 'don't believe it'? I doubt it.
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Bryan,

    I seem to be missing the point you are trying to make.

    Of course I am speculating........ I do not profess to be 2,000 years old, so who in their right mind could tell you otherwise???????????

    You are trying to split hairs with this claim vs. declared stance........ the issue at hand is that He was, and is....... God.

    Scott
     
  7. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    So I guess it's your opinion when you imagine that it was a declaration TO Jesus. :S

    Am I? Sorry about that.

    That's not the issue. That's what you believe. In the beginning, I said let's have a debate between those who believe Christ is God and those who believe He isn't God. I didn't start this thread off saying Jesus is God, period! So the issue is: Is Jesus God? What you said above is debatable.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I give up.......... If you are looking for an answer that CAN NOT be debated, I think you are going to be dissapointed....... short of Jesus tapping you on the arm......!

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  9. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    That's fine with me.

    FYI, I'm not looking for an answer. As far as being disappointed, I think both sides end up being disappointed with one another. Atleast that's what I witness of all the debates I've seen or been in on other Forums.
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    I certainly do not understand, a Spirit having a Spirit and those two Spirits having another Spirit sitting at the right hand of the first Spirit! I really don't think any sane person could or would believe in a Triune Spirit.

    This issue is the issue that separates the Hebrew from the believers in the Messiah.
    So God is One, besides God/Creator, there is no other God.
    The Hebrew says God created the Aleph Beit, the first born of creation/Word of God/Torah, God spoke the Torah/Word of God and the Heavens & Earth were made.
    John 1:1- 5 Says the same in Kabbalah.

    When Yeshua taps me on the arm, I believe he is going to say to me and the others who reject a triune God, "Very Good! For upholding theTorah. How easy it would have been to join those False Teachers and teach others to believe in a false God."
     
  11. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Each side has its own views and beliefs and refuses to be swayed. Almost every argument about religioun boils down to a few basic debates: creation verses evolution, the validity of the Bible, or the existence of God (among a few other issues). And people already have their ideas, beliefs, and views on these subjects, refusing to give them up. And when the debate is over every side goes away wiondering how the others can believe what they believes.
     
  12. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    yeah, so let's talk about baseball.
     
  13. Bryan X

    Bryan X Member

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    So how bout' them New York Yankees?

    J/K, I don't know much about Baseball.
     
  14. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    They say the three things you never talk about with other people are religion, politics and baseball.
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    That was before the internet, those subjects usually led to blows. Step over the line and I'll punch you in the nose!
    And if you goal is to win! Bad attitude!
    Share Truth! Good.
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    One of the most beautiful and yet illogically interpreted scriptures is the first chapter on the Gospel of John. First of all, to say that Jesus Christ is not God in my mind does not degrade the importance and significance of Jesus Christ in any way. It simply elevates God, the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ, to His unique, exalted, unparalleled position. God alone is God. Now our very redemption, the crucial point on which all of Christianity rests, is dependent on Jesus Christ spit on, tortured, crucified, dead and buried, had to be a sheep from the flock. God would hardly qualify as one of our brethren, yet His Son could. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of man because he had a human for a mother; and he is the Son of God because of his created conception by God. So on the basis of the parentage of God alone, besides his choosing to live a perfect life, Jesus Christ is by no means a run of the mill, unmarked human being. Thus to say that I do not elevate and respect the position of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because I do not believe the evidence designates Jesus Christ as God is to speak the judgment of a fool. It is he who sought me out from the darkness. It is he who gives me access to God; even now he is my mediator. It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin. It is he who gave me the new birth of God's eternal life - which is Christ in me, the hope of glory. It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins. It is he who filled me to capacity by God's presence in Christ in all the fullness of God's gift of holy spirit. It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies. It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love. It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God's accurate Word. It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him. It is he who is God's only-begotten Son. May I as a son of God live and die to glorify the God whom men can only know from God's written Word, the Bible, and from the declared Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ. I love him and the one and only God who sent him. May His mercy and grace continue to be yours as well as mine, and may God be magnified by our testimony of Him who gave His Son that we might have life and have it more abundantly. Yes, that life which is eternal and therefore more than abundant.
     
  17. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    A few words regarding John 1:1. Many have never questioned or given thoughtful consideration to the doctrine of the trinity. The idea is so well rooted that most seldom consider the implications of a three-in-one God. What difference does it make whether Jesus Christ is God or the Son of God? The importance of this difference is IF JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AND NOT THE SON OF GOD, WE HAVE NOT YET BEEN REDEEMED. The people who hold this idea that God is Jesus and Jesus is God substantiate their beliefs by isolating bits of biblical text. Genesis 1:26 is their initial scripture. Truly, this scripture is no proof of Jesus' existence in the beginning. Aside from 1:26, the basic scripture upon which the Jesus-is-God doctrine has been founded in John 1:1. This has been read and interpreted as follows: "In the beginning was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. All three were with God, and all three were God." However the verse actually reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." You see, the question of John 1:1 is basicly who is "the Word" or what is "the Word".
     
  18. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    yeshua is/was always the word of [yhwh]

    the word of [yhwh] does not always refer to yeshua

    for in acts we read"..the word of 'god' multiplied.."
     
  19. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    John 17:11,21 and 22, yeshua prayed to his father that his followers would be “one” as he and his father were “one.” I think it is obvious that yeshua was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” I believe the meaning is clear: yeshua was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and his father were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered."..My doctrine is not my own, but his who has sent me.."

    anything else?

    --$
     
  20. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    continued below
     
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