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Joe Boonda Debate on Baha`i

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Popeyesays, Mar 12, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Joe posted this on the Baha`i Discussion forum, but I think it is too contentious for being in a forum for discussion and fellowship in the Baha`i Faith. I asked the moderator to remove the post from there and I want to bring it over here - so . . . here is the post in entirety:
    "
    [SIZE=+2]A Christian Look[/SIZE] [SIZE=+2]at the [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+2]BAHA'I FAITH [/SIZE]


    "The Baha'i Faith" is a publication authored by Mary Perkins and Philip Hainsworth, and is sent out to those inquiring into the Baha'i Faith. This tract is a Christian reply to the claims contained therein.
    Our concern is that when recruiting persons into the Baha'i Faith, the claim is made that you can keep your Christianity and still be a Baha'i. They claim you can join your Christianity to their noble aims and all work together for world unity and peace. Christians, please consider carefully the following points


    BELIEFS OF THE BAHA'I FAITH ONENESS OF HUMANITY -- HOW?
    Page 39 of "The Baha'i Faith" quotes their prophet Baha'u'llah as saying,
    "We verily, have come to unite and weld together all that dwell on earth." The paragraph goes on to point out that there is "unity in diversity", and "every group of people can find the highest possible expression of their own particular ideals and aspirations." Page 40 goes on to state that "unity will not be imposed from above" ..."but will evolve gradually in human consciousness..."


    THE CHRISTIAN REPLYTO THE ABOVE
    The Bible teaches the establishment of God's Kingdom over the earth by Divine intervention. Entrance into that Kingdom is by receiving Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as personal Savior (John 1:12). With that rebirth, we are transferred from the Kingdom of darkness to God's Kingdom.
    "For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13,14).
    The Kingdom over the earth will be heralded in by the second coming of Christ in power and glory. Christians should look to Christ, not "human consciousness"!


    MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD
    The Baha'i Faith teaches that there have been nine manifestations of God on the earth, namely Krishna, Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah. These messengers are referred to as "perfect and stainless souls". (BF p.40 and 41). Baha'is go so far as to say that (God)..."hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of his own self." (BF p.41)
    To the Christian, this is blasphemy. Christ alone is unique and perfect. He is the only sinless one. Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 reads,
    "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
    There is none greater than Jesus Christ, who is Almighty God (Revelation 1:8). He alone is God incarnate, the only manifestation of the one God.
    Statements of the Baha'is such as "Each time such a manifestation appears on earth, it is as if the spirit of all the former manifestations return with him." (BF p.41) smack of Eastern reincarnation and border on the occult.
    Christians are well warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4,
    "There will be those coming to you preaching ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached..."
    Truly, the Baha'i Faith preaches another Jesus, and not the Jesus Christ of the Bible and Christianity. Remember Christians, if you have the right Jesus Christ you are right for all eternity, but if you have the wrong Jesus Christ, you are wrong for all eternity!


    THE BAHA'I VIEW OF THE BIBLE
    The Baha'i Faith considers the scriptures of all the world's religions as sacred. They point out, however, that all religions go through the stages of birth, growth, and decay. Page 42 of "The Baha'i Faith" goes on to say, "When the period of decay is reached, a new seed is planted in the hearts of men by a new messenger and a new growth begins."
    What they are really saying is that the Bible, and Jesus Christ have decayed and we now must turn to their prophet Baha'u'llah and his writings! Christians beware of those who would tamper with the eternal word found in the Bible. Psalms 119:89 says, "Forever, O LORD, Thy word is settled in heaven."


    THE BAHA'I FAITH VIEW OF THE HEREAFTER
    We quote here from "The Baha'i Faith", page 47, "The soul, freed from the body much in the way that a captured bird is freed from a cage, will continue to progress and advance towards God. Our progress in the next world will depend on the efforts we have made here."
    "Heaven" and "Hell" are not places but states of being, Heaven in nearness to God and Hell remoteness from him. These states of being exist in this life as well as the life beyond."
    Here again, the Baha'i Faith parts company drastically with Christianity. The above quotes not only allude to reincarnation and Eastern mysticism, but also of salvation by works, rather than grace.


    THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE HEREAFTER
    Christians do not "progress" towards God, based on their works, but go directly to be with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 says,
    "...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
    Christian salvation is by grace and not by works. Ephesians 2:8,9 says,
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
    Christians do good works of course, but these are a result of their salvation, not a condition for it.
    Heaven and Hell are real places to spend eternity in the Bible, not in this life, but at our literal deaths. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25:46,
    "And these (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


    ARE THE BAHA'IS REALLY ACCEPTING OF OTHERS?
    Quoting from a tablet of Abdu'l-Baha we read,
    "And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love--the revelation of the Merciful--shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame." (BF p.38).
    Therefore, we can only conclude that those rejecting the Baha'i Faith are considered vile, degraded, and shameful and worthy of destruction. Indeed, this group is not what it seems. It is not all-loving and all-accepting of other faiths. That is just a ploy to attract the unwary. Once in, the follower is bound by many regulations and rules peculiar to the Baha'is. The follower finds himself in a cult misrepresenting Jesus Christ.


    IN CONCLUSION
    Page 45 of "The Baha'i Faith" contains these words "Baha'u'llah does not wish anyone to accept his revelation blindly. He asks each individual to look into it for himself, to use his own eyes and ears, his own faculty of reasoning and to make up his own mind."
    Having accepted this invitation, I have examined the Baha'i Faith from my Christian perspective and have found it misleading in its presentation. A Christian definitely CANNOT be a Baha'i, and neither can any Baha'i claim to be a Christian. So, make your own choice today, your eternity will depend on it!

    This is just something I read, thot I would share, I hope it contains no offenses but shows differences between our faiths:www.macgregorministries.org/cult_groups/bahai.html
    ___________________________
    Jesus loves you!:)

    Last edited by joeboonda : Today at 05:23 PM. "


    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. Karl R

    Karl R Active Member

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    I won't claim to fully understand Baha'i beliefs or fully agree with them. However, given the way the arguements from the MacGregor site are contructed, it looks like their primary understanding of Baha'i comes from one large pamphlet.

    The points that MacGregor's website raises in its debate seem to arise from an interpretation of the pamphlet that's not supported by the text they quote.


    The Oneness of Humanity

    MacGregor says salvation comes from Jesus. The Baha'i say that religious unity will come from human conciousness. Since "salvation" does not mean the same thing as "religious unity", I fail to see how MacGregor's counter-arguement addresses the point at all.

    Manifestations of God

    MacGregor asserts that only christ was sinless. This belief is supported by christian doctrine, though MacGregor fails to provide scriptural support. He provides a scriptural passage that states christ is the sole mediator. However, none of the quotes from the pamphlet contradict this claim.

    MacGregor claims that the Baha'i teachings sound like reincarnation and the occult. Reincarnation would be the same spirit returning to the next manifestation. The Baha'i's quote implies that it's not the same spirit. In addition, since both religions believe in a holy spirit, the usage of the word "spirit" needs to be put into its full context.

    According to my dictionary, the "occult" includes anything that's supernatural. That includes god, christ, miracles....

    Baha'i View of the Bible

    MacGregor claims that the Baha'i believe that christianity has decayed.

    Heck, I believe that christianity has fallen into multiple periods of decay (the Crusades, the Inquisition). The quote MacGregor uses does not indicate whether the Baha'i believe that christianity is currently in that kind of state.

    Baha'i View of the Afterlife

    The Baha'i clearly belief that the soul's progress continues after death. MacGregor interprets this to mean reincarnation. Catholics believe in purgatory, which also implies a progression of the soul after death (much more in line with the quote from the Baha'i pamphlet).

    The Baha'i indicate that progress in the afterlife depends on efforts made in this life. MacGregor equates "efforts" with "works", which is a fairly narrow definition. Furthermore, scripture states that "Faith without works is dead." MacGregor's efforts to completely divorce salvation from works sounds a bit hollow.

    Baha'i's Acceptance of Others

    The Baha'i state that those who turn away from the divine love and the revelation of the merciful will be destroyed. MacGregor claims that the Baha'i believe christians are damned. MacGregor fails to realize that anyone following Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, etc. are following that divine love (according to Baha'i beliefs).

    It almost seems like MacGregor is unwilling to believe that the Baha'i aren't as prejudiced as he is.


    The original source document continues with another page presenting weaknesses of the Baha'i faith (divisiveness in the early days of the religion, confusing definition of monotheism). Many of these arguements could be applied against christianity with equal ease.
     
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  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Well, McGregor calls The Baha`i Faith a tract, but it is in fact about 140 pages, which puts it in the book category. It is meant only to be an introduction to guide others into making their own investigations. He tries to answer a book with a tract and fails.

    As to the concept of reincarnation in the Baha`i Faith it is a red-herring. Reincarnation is flatly denied in the Baha`i Faith. Abdu'l Baha says:
    "Therefore, by returning, it is absolutely impossible to obtain existence; it is as if man, after being freed from the womb, should return to it a second time. Consider what a puerile imagination this is which is implied by the belief in reincarnation and transmigration. Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child's play. 287 They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror. If it were thus, and the spirit by returning to this material world could pass through the degrees and attain to essential perfection, it would be better if God prolonged the life of the spirit in the material world until it had acquired perfections and graces; it then would not be necessary for it to taste of the cup of death, or to acquire a second life."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 286)

    I'll touch on some of the other claims another time.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    <MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD
    The Baha'i Faith teaches that there have been nine manifestations of God on the earth, namely Krishna, Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah. These messengers are referred to as "perfect and stainless souls". (BF p.40 and 41). Baha'is go so far as to say that (God)..."hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of his own self." (BF p.41)

    To the Christian, this is blasphemy. Christ alone is unique and perfect. He is the only sinless one. Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 reads,
    "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
    There is none greater than Jesus Christ, who is Almighty God (Revelation 1:8). He alone is God incarnate, the only manifestation of the one God.
    Statements of the Baha'is such as "Each time such a manifestation appears on earth, it is as if the spirit of all the former manifestations return with him." (BF p.41) smack of Eastern reincarnation and border on the occult.
    Christians are well warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4,
    "There will be those coming to you preaching ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached..."
    Truly, the Baha'i Faith preaches another Jesus, and not the Jesus Christ of the Bible and Christianity. Remember Christians, if you have the right Jesus Christ you are right for all eternity, but if you have the wrong Jesus Christ, you are wrong for all eternity!>

    This one causes chuckles, Actually we teach there have been more than NINE Manifestations of God. To the nine mentioned in the tract, we have to include Noah, Lot, Salih, Hud, and there frankly are others Who have been lost to historical record in the mists of time. Whenever a people was in need of renewal then a Manifestation would appear. Today that is not so common because for the first time this world is ONE community and we know in all parts when an event occurs.

    For example the Bab declared His mission about 2 hours after sunset on the night of May 23rd, 1844 CE. That very day, earlier by not very much in England, Samuel Morse made the first public display of a telegraph message. For the first time it was possible in this world for a message to travel great distances almost instantly. Morse's message was a Biblical quotation: "What hath God wrought!" It seems uniquely powerful to me that so shortly after this historical moment and even greater historical moment ocurred and the first Divine Manifestation able to reach the entire world with His advent chose to announce Himself. Within months news about the Bab was appearing in newspapers in England and Paris.

    Atthe time of Christ this was not possible.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  5. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    The apologetics quoted in the OP indeed are full of errors and misconceptions about the Baha’i Faith. One important point, which undermines pretty much all of the rest of the commentary, is that Baha’is no longer claim that one can be a Christian and a Baha’i at the same time. They do, however, claim that the Baha’i Faith is consistent with Christianity, and this, IMO, is a debatable position. For example, statements such as the following made by Bruce in another thread:



    The Baha’i Faith may be considered ‘consistent’ with Biblical teachings in the sense of a rather radical Sola scriptura approach. The greater context of historical Church doctrine must be totally discarded as errant to come to the same conclusions about Christ and His message as the Baha’i Faith proposes, most substantially concerning the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, grace, and the efficacy of the sacraments. This fails to acknowledge that the very scriptures to which Baha’is point for confirmation of their faith was compiled and protected by a Church they consider errant.

    For the record, I consider the Baha’i Faith a valid spiritual refuge and an independent religion, different than, rather than progressive from, Christianity. There is really very little point in debating Baha’i theology and doctrine because, like other religions, Baha’is accept a different authority than traditional Christians. Thus, no appeal to interpretation of scriptures alone will ever resolve the differences between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith.

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
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  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    That's nicely put, Luna. There are some debatable points remaining still.

    Baha'i's don't consider the Christian scriptures "errant", because we believe God capable of protecting His own Word. Interpretation can be errant, however, without challenging the scripture's inerrancy.

    To put it simply, Baha`i's view the Epistles, the Acts and the Apocalypse as commentary, and as such the commentators are not inerrant. This is much how reformed Judaism looks at the Talmud. Peter, Paul, et al., did not speak the word of God as Christ had. They were not even appointed official interpreters, the succession to authority in Christianity is not apparent and is, in fact, a commentary whose errancy is in question.

    Jesus spoke the Word of God, just like Moses, Muhammad, or Baha`u'llah. The Apostles of Christ had no such guarantee explicit or implied. Most of Christianities many doctrines are derived from commentary rather than Divine source.

    from you source on Sola Scriptura""The Church is to be judged by the Scriptures, not the Scriptures by the Church." [John Wesley] The Reformers argued that the Scriptures are guaranteed to remain true to their divine source, and thus, only insofar as the Church retains scriptural faith is it assured of all the promises of God."

    And: "Although there is no agreed-upon technical definition among Protestants, it generally meant that Scripture, as interpreted by the individual believer, is the only inerrant rule for deciding issues of faith and morals. " This is in direct congruence with the Baha`i principle of individual investigation of the truth.

    So the Baha`i Faith is very "Sola Scriptura", and in interpretation of the personal investigation concept, every religion should be that way. The Baha`i Faith does not even allow clergy to muddy the waters in that regard.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. mankind_iz_one

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    The Baha'i doctrine of the Oneness of Humanity means that we should all love one another. Give up prejudice and discrimination, stop using violence to resolve problems. This includes every man, woman, and child on Earth. Are Christians opposed to this? If they are, then what, exactly, does Jesus want us to do instead? Hate? Have wars?

    I find this hilarious. Psalms is not Christian Scripture, it is Jewish Scripture. If the verse means what this tract claims, then it conclusively and irrefutably proves Christianity to be false. If it does NOT preclude God speaking to mankind through Jesus Christ hundreds of years after the Psalms were composed, then how does it preclude the Baha'i Faith?
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    As far as polemic against the Baha`i Faith the pamphlet that was posted is pretty much 2nd rate. To borrow the vernacular from blues musicians - "He got hisself the axe, but he ain't got hisself the chops."

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. mankind_iz_one

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    Have you ever come across a first rate one? If it exists, I would be very interested in reading it.
     
  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Actually there aren't a lot, usually when the diatribe hits the paper its based on a collossal number of misconceptions. The thing is that IF they understood the Baha`i Faith sufficiently to oppose it really well, they are usually busier signing a declaration card than writing their polemic.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, enjoyed the posts. I am working overtime, so not around much. You know I respect all people and all faiths, and enjoy learning of them, I enjoyed the comments on that 'tract' I found, all interesting. Couple short things I would say, is that I look at the great men like Moses, etc. to be prophets of God but just differently. These prophets, a loose meaning is to 'speak forth', spoke for God, but were not God manifest in the flesh, they were just messengers. (and some prophets are false). Jesus, however, is different to me, as I believe He is greater than all, Lord of Lords, God incarnate, and not just another "manifestation",this from my understanding of the entire Bible, OT, NT, which I understand you do not except the epistles. Like from the Gospels and the OT, I feel when John said prepare ye the way of the Lord, quoting the OT, He spoke of Jesus and in Mathew He is called God with us. Anyway, we just differ on this idea, I hold Jesus to be a name above all names, and not like any other prophet, for He is our Redeemer, who shed His blood to buy us, pay for our sins, and rose from the dead.
    The other thing was the Morse Code idea. Jesus had the same thing happen, as the NT says that in the fullness of time He came. At the time, Rome ruled the known civilized world and 'all roads led to Rome',so, this was a time when men could travel across many countries and preach the good news.
    Oh, also, the quote from Psalms, well, we feel that God used Israel, his chosen people through whom THE Messiah would come, so Psalms is Christian to us as we believe that Christ is the Messiah foretold of in the OT. The OT is extremely important to Christians. Well, enjoyed the comments, and perhaps sometime when I have time, will try to discuss why I feel the entire NT is God-inspired scripture. Thanks,
    Mike
     
  12. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is that it's nice to see that Joeboonda is giving the LDS a breather! I'm going to enjoy it while I can. :D
     
  13. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Thanks for this post, Karl. I'm not acquainted with MacGregor, and it makes for interesting reading.

    He makes a number of very basic mistakes. Popeye already mentioned the one about reincarnation.

    Another biggie is the misunderstanding about what decays. Christ never decays. The Gospel will always have the power to direct people to God (i.e. "save" them). It could be a million years from now, and this will still be true.
    1827. We Must Use writings of the Prophets as our Measurement

    "We must use writings of the Prophets as our measurement. If Bahá'u'lláh had attached the slightest importance to occult experiences, to the seeing of auras, to the hearing of mystic voices; if He had believed that reincarnation was a fact, He, Himself, would have mentioned all of these things in His Teachings. The fact that He passed over them in silence shows that to Him, they had either no importance or no reality, and were consequently not worthy to take up His time as the Divine Educator of the human race."

    (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 538)

    It's true, we believe that religions go through phases, and one of these you could call a phase of decay. But what decays is the religions institutions, not the very basis of it.

    You mention yourself some of the not-exactly-Gospel-inspired activities of Christian institutions. Other religions have their down periods as well. Islam is currently having a big struggle with it. You'd have to completely ignore history not to acknowledge this is a fact of religions.

    But that does not mean there is anything wrong with the original Message or the Messenger. Nor does decay of institutions make a religion "evil." It just means that while God may send up a perfect Message, we ourselves are not perfect, and yup, we do have a way of screwing things up over time.

    No one should view this as any sort of Baha'i criticism of their religion. We just happen to be young on the scene. We'll pass through our phase, just like every religion before us has. And then there will come the next religion, and it will do the same thing. But overall, with each new religion and phase of human development, humanity grows and improves.

    The analogy I'm fond of is this: When a child is in it's mother's womb, if something goes wrong with the process of physical growth, that child is born into this world hampered, sometimes very severely. In this life, the point it to grow spiritually. If we don't do that, we are born into the next life spiritually hampered. We may continue to progress in the next life, but we will have *nothing* to say about that -- it is entirely up to God's grace. It's only in this life that we make choices that can affect our spiritual growth.

    While strictly speaking Baha'is do not believe in a place called Heaven and another called Hell, we do recognize that there are consequences for our actions, both in this world and in the next.

    This doesn't make the concept of heaven and hell "wrong." They're fair descriptions of having consequences for your actions, and just happen to be mighty appropriate for the audience to which those ideas were addressed.

    If God is omnicient, surely he has enough sense to put His instructions forth in a way that His audience can comprehend? Sheesh, even *I* can do that...

    Funny how in...hm...26 years I've never once heard anyone mention such an idea.

    Hey, we all have our veils that need piercing.

    Yes, and other religions as well.

    Confusing definition of monotheism? As compared to what...Trinitarian doctrine? I thought the usual mirror/sun analogy made it quite clear. It also explains how any Prophet can get off speaking as if He were God, which they have a habit of doing at times. Even Muhammad does it, and elsewhere He clearly said He wasn't God.
     
  14. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Hey Squirt; From what I've seen from years on religion conferences, you guys can use every breather you can get.

    Enjoy the show. :)
     
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  15. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Um....so Elijah returning in the person of John the Baptist "smack of Eastern reincarnation and border [sic] on the occult"?

    And here I thought it was just a fulfillment of some prophecy in the Tenakh. My bad.
     
  16. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    You might be interested in an answer the House gave to an individual believer who asked about Arius and the Arian heresy. The answer, very paraphrased, ran like this: It doesn't matter if Arius was theologically correct -- he was wrong to split the Church over it.

    I think Bruce will have a full copy of their answer. The questioner was a friend of his.
     
  17. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Lol, yeah, I'm not such a bad guy. Anyway I admire your morality and commitment, and I been working alot of overtime lately, lol. Besides everyone usually ends up feeling like::banghead3 lol. Peace and Love!
    Mike
     
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