Joe Biden, the Bishops & Vatican II: The Battle Over the Brand of U.S. Catholicism

[pearl]

Mr. Biden has a Catholic faith that appears to have been shaped by Vatican II and its optimistic engagement with the world.

When we think of the Biden era now just getting underway in this context, a question presents itself. For all the authenticity and beauty of Mr. Biden’s faith, abortion politics leaves many Catholics in our deeply divided church far from convinced that he is sincere. Moreover, at 78 years of age, Mr. Biden is a man from another time. The world toward which the council turned the church is different. So is the church.

With the Catholic Church now besieged by scandal, financial collapse and an extraordinary exodus of the faithful hastened by the Covid-19 pandemic, there are good reasons to be worried that the bold experimental spirit of Vatican II, its hope for a church engaged with the world, is at its end in these Biden years. Many Catholics could be tempted to indulge hopes that the Biden administration could be a new beginning for the council’s spirit of engagement with the world if Mr. Biden can excite Americans about Catholicism—while at the same time exciting Catholics about the goodness of our political obligations.

It just as easily could be the last hurrah.

Joe Biden, the Bishops & Vatican II: The Battle Over the Brand of U.S. Catholicism | America Magazine

 

[metis]

The Catholic Church is going to continue to get smaller for several reasons as even our quite conservative priest at the parish we attend says.

Gotta go.

 

[exchemist]

Mr. Biden has a Catholic faith that appears to have been shaped by Vatican II and its optimistic engagement with the world.

When we think of the Biden era now just getting underway in this context, a question presents itself. For all the authenticity and beauty of Mr. Biden’s faith, abortion politics leaves many Catholics in our deeply divided church far from convinced that he is sincere. Moreover, at 78 years of age, Mr. Biden is a man from another time. The world toward which the council turned the church is different. So is the church.

With the Catholic Church now besieged by scandal, financial collapse and an extraordinary exodus of the faithful hastened by the Covid-19 pandemic, there are good reasons to be worried that the bold experimental spirit of Vatican II, its hope for a church engaged with the world, is at its end in these Biden years. Many Catholics could be tempted to indulge hopes that the Biden administration could be a new beginning for the council’s spirit of engagement with the world if Mr. Biden can excite Americans about Catholicism—while at the same time exciting Catholics about the goodness of our political obligations.

It just as easily could be the last hurrah.

Joe Biden, the Bishops & Vatican II: The Battle Over the Brand of U.S. Catholicism | America Magazine

Good article. One thing that jumped out at me as quite extraordinary is the notion that having a Catholic head of state somehow calls into question "who owns the brand".

Just think back to pre-Reformation days. EVERY head of state was Catholic then, as were all the officials and influential people. Yet somehow, the church managed to put up (!) with that state of affairs, without fearing that it had lost control. This argument seems close to wishing that Catholics remain a minority sect, in the margins of society, just to give the bishops control of it. How inward-looking - or "self-referential", as the Pope apparently puts it.

This whole abortion thing has got quite out of control in the USA. It has become a single-issue crusade, before which everything else about Catholic faith has to take second place. If the bishops persist with this notion of denying communion to the president, just because he won't unilaterally change the law - in a democracy! - to suit the Catholic church, then that will be a good signal for hundreds of thousands more to leave the church. It is clear the Pope sees this danger. Why can't the US bishops? Actually I imagine some of them do see it and that there will a huge argument about this proposed course of action.

 

[pearl]

This argument seems close to wishing that Catholics remain a minority sect, in the margins of society, just to give the bishops control of it. How inward-looking - or "self-referential", as the Pope apparently puts it.

Yet its exactly what Benedict XVI has stated; he wanted a 'smaller but purer' church.

This whole abortion thing has got quite out of control in the USA. It has become a single-issue crusade, before which everything else about Catholic faith has to take second place.

Americans have had the abortion carrot dangled in front of them with every Republican candidate since R v W. How many people held their nose and voted for Trump for the same reason?

just because he won't unilaterally change the law - in a democracy!

Its a little more complicated than that. He has promised to 'protect' the law allowing abortions. This is where the 'personally I do not believe in abortion but....' does not cut it with the Church. Biden's position on all other issues of social justice promoted by the Church is one with the Church.

Actually I imagine some of them do see it and that there will a huge argument about this proposed course of action.

I wonder about other bishops worldwide. Will Biden be refused Eucharist in other countries or will they put the US bishops to shame?

 

[exchemist]

Yet its exactly what Benedict XVI has stated; he wanted a 'smaller but purer' church.



Americans have had the abortion carrot dangled in front of them with every Republican candidate since R v W. How many people held their nose and voted for Trump for the same reason?



Its a little more complicated than that. He has promised to 'protect' the law allowing abortions. This is where the 'personally I do not believe in abortion but....' does not cut it with the Church. Biden's position on all other issues of social justice promoted by the Church is one with the Church.



I wonder about other bishops worldwide. Will Biden be refused Eucharist in other countries or will they put the US bishops to shame?

I should have thought the duty of a head of state is to respect the will of the people, rather than trying to impose his own religious beliefs on them. If the bishops can't see that, they are fairly blinkered.

What I can tell you for sure is no European country will follow the US bishops on this, especially as the Pope - the Pope! - is against it.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Mr. Biden has a Catholic faith that appears to have been shaped by Vatican II and its optimistic engagement with the world.

When we think of the Biden era now just getting underway in this context, a question presents itself. For all the authenticity and beauty of Mr. Biden’s faith, abortion politics leaves many Catholics in our deeply divided church far from convinced that he is sincere. Moreover, at 78 years of age, Mr. Biden is a man from another time. The world toward which the council turned the church is different. So is the church.

With the Catholic Church now besieged by scandal, financial collapse and an extraordinary exodus of the faithful hastened by the Covid-19 pandemic, there are good reasons to be worried that the bold experimental spirit of Vatican II, its hope for a church engaged with the world, is at its end in these Biden years. Many Catholics could be tempted to indulge hopes that the Biden administration could be a new beginning for the council’s spirit of engagement with the world if Mr. Biden can excite Americans about Catholicism—while at the same time exciting Catholics about the goodness of our political obligations.

It just as easily could be the last hurrah.

Joe Biden, the Bishops & Vatican II: The Battle Over the Brand of U.S. Catholicism | America Magazine

hopefully the catholic religion can continue to evolve in a positive direction

it may go a long way to improve the image, if they weren’t so insistent on things not in the bible remaining as such pillars of the religion

scandals, financial collapse and exodus of members is a symptom of something wrong, is it not?

 

[pearl]

hopefully the catholic religion can continue to evolve in a positive direction

Ironically, at what point abortion was considered homicide was not fixed from the beginning. From the Didache; Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor that which is begotten, for "everything that is shaped and has received a soul from God if it be slain, shall be avenged as being unjustly destroyed".

Augustine and Aquinas differed on when ensoulment took place, 40, 80 days? at 'quickening'? etc.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Ironically, at what point abortion was considered homicide was not fixed from the beginning. From the Didache; Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor that which is begotten, for "everything that is shaped and has received a soul from God if it be slain, shall be avenged as being unjustly destroyed".

Augustine and Aquinas differed on when ensoulment took place, 40, 80 days? at 'quickening'? etc.

the abortion thing is a big issue in the catholic church

it is odd, how there are so many different ideas about everything, like whether aborted babies go directly to heaven without any qualifiers

that would possibly make an interesting thread

 

[exchemist]

hopefully the catholic religion can continue to evolve in a positive direction

it may go a long way to improve the image, if they weren’t so insistent on things not in the bible remaining as such pillars of the religion

scandals, financial collapse and exodus of members is a symptom of something wrong, is it not?

Interesting comment. What sort of things do you have in mind that are not in the bible? Quite a lot of theology is derived from thinking about what is in the bible and drawing conclusions from it that are not explicitly stated in it, beginning with the Trinity.

 

[metis]

This whole abortion thing has got quite out of control in the USA. It has become a single-issue crusade, before which everything else about Catholic faith has to take second place. If the bishops persist with this notion of denying communion to the president, just because he won't unilaterally change the law - in a democracy! - to suit the Catholic church, then that will be a good signal for hundreds of thousands more to leave the church. It is clear the Pope sees this danger. Why can't the US bishops? Actually I imagine some of them do see it and that there will a huge argument about this proposed course of action.

The above is sooooooooooo very well said.

 

[Quiddity]

Vatican 2 didn’t become an issue simply because it made a decision to engage the world in a different manner, or because it was merely a symptom of some of the bad trends that were seeping into the Church by an ever-increasing secular world. It left many Catholics bothered and confused primarily because it became the decisive moment at which much of what the Church was pushing back against were allowed to triumph under the guise of a new evangelization. Biden is a good champion of precisely this form of evangelization. Whereby, you cannot even tell Catholics apart from everyone else. This brand of Catholicism is as brittle as what the world is seeing. Where political parties or forms of secular fundamentalism easily sway the Catholic in the name of tolerance. This form of Catholicism will die in the face of antiquity. No matter how much those wanting it to change wish otherwise. The likelihood is as already been mentioned, will become a much smaller Church.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Interesting comment. What sort of things do you have in mind that are not in the bible? Quite a lot of theology is derived from thinking about what is in the bible and drawing conclusions from it that are not explicitly stated in it, beginning with the Trinity.

it is as you say

does anyone really care what I think?

what I think will not be the demise of religion.

it is possible religion is doing a superb job of that all by itself

was the collapse inevitable once the Nicene council was convened, perhaps?

what do you think the Lord is talking about in Revelation?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2020/09/25/joe-biden-is-the-only-truly-pro-life-presidential-candidate/

interesting article

 

[exchemist]

it is as you say

does anyone really care what I think?

what I think will not be the demise of religion.

it is possible religion is doing a superb job of that all by itself

was the collapse inevitable once the Nicene council was convened, perhaps?

what do you think the Lord is talking about in Revelation?

How about answering my question?

 

[metis]

Vatican 2 didn’t become an issue simply because it made a decision to engage the world in a different manner, or because it was merely a symptom of some of the bad trends that were seeping into the Church by an ever-increasing secular world. It left many Catholics bothered and confused primarily because it became the decisive moment at which much of what the Church was pushing back against were allowed to triumph under the guise of a new evangelization. Biden is a good champion of precisely this form of evangelization. Whereby, you cannot even tell Catholics apart from everyone else. This brand of Catholicism is as brittle as what the world is seeing. Where political parties or forms of secular fundamentalism easily sway the Catholic in the name of tolerance. This form of Catholicism will die in the face of antiquity. No matter how much those wanting it to change wish otherwise. The likelihood is as already been mentioned, will become a much smaller Church.

We need to remember that the Church is not the "Gestapo", thus there is and always has been room for personal discernment. As one priest I know said, the Church is like the Roman traffic cop, whereas some will largely do what he says, some will ignore him, and some will do elements of both.

Ultimately, it is us who will be judged.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

How about answering my question?

sure thing mate

all the man made nonsense:

three persons
faith without works
homophobia
anti abortion nonsense
anti anything and everything nonsense (religion, especially Christianity, is full of things they’re against, but quite limited on what they are “for”)

Jesus was FOR EVERYONE. EVERYONE. plenty of verses stating he came FOR the world, NOT a chosen few who follow a dead man made religion.

as a matter of fact, He was pretty much against man made religion.

and just because Christianity usurped the name “Christ”, and tacked him onto all their false beliefs, doesn’t mean a follower of Christianity is a follower of the Lord.

ok

you asked for it

you insisted

you got it

my opinion

which you could most likely care less of

but you want to hear so badly

for some reason. (is it a noble reason?) (is it a loving reason?)

like I said, my views aren’t going to be the demise of religion

Christianity is doing a superb job without my assistance

(i have had people ask my opinion before. and upon giving it, I discovered they didn’t really want my opinion, because if it disagreed with their opinion it would be immediately dismissed and they would then label me, in some way that made them feel superior.)

 

[exchemist]

sure thing mate

all the man made nonsense:

three persons
faith without works
homophobia
anti abortion nonsense
anti anything and everything nonsense (religion, especially Christianity, is full of things they’re against, but quite limited on what they are “for”)

Jesus was FOR EVERYONE. EVERYONE. plenty of verses stating he came FOR the world, NOT a chosen few who follow a dead man made religion.

as a matter of fact, He was pretty much against man made religion.

and just because Christianity usurped the name “Christ”, and tacked him onto all their false beliefs, doesn’t mean a follower of Christianity is a follower of the Lord.

ok

you asked for it

you insisted

you got it

my opinion

which you could most likely care less of

but you want to hear so badly

for some reason. (is it a noble reason?) (is it a loving reason?)

like I said, my views aren’t going to be the demise of religion

Christianity is doing a superb job without my assistance

(i have had people ask my opinion before. and upon giving it, I discovered they didn’t really want my opinion, because if it disagreed with their opinion it would be immediately dismissed and they would then label me, in some way that made them feel superior.)

Thanks for answering, at any rate. That helps me understand some of what you have been saying. You seem very angry, though.

Tell me, this being the Catholic DIR that you are posting in, are you, or were you once, in fact Catholic?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Thanks for answering, at any rate. That helps me understand some of what you have been saying. You seem very angry, though.

Tell me, this being the Catholic DIR that you are posting in, are you, or were you once, in fact Catholic?

absolutely no anger

i do realize i see some things very differently than most Christians

i do realize I sometimes sound much more dramatic than the intent

i try to start out by NOT sharing my religious opinion, which really serves no purpose unless a person is seeking something different

i was raised Catholic, back in the day when the sermons were Latin only

i went my first two years of school in Catholic school

my wonderful grandparents and my dad, and all the other relatives n that side of the family were Catholic all their lives

as I got older I gave up religion, but when I hit 62 decided to give it another try
in pentacostalism, unfortunately

that ended a few years ago, and now I’m in religion limbo

it was a major bust, but I learned a lot

what did I learn?

how not to be

Catholic church has a lot of positives, and Catholics who lead a good life are wonderful people

i really love the present Pope. who knows, we may differ on him?

my personal choice between Catholic and Protestant at this day, should I determine that I need a religion, would definitely be Catholic

i have just come to a point where I can’t agree to things that seem wrong to me, pretty much the list of things I posted above
if I could attend church and be a helpful, loving person to the best of my ability in all my church interactions, then that would be fine
but the main Christian religions require certain things of us when we join
it’s not easy when one realizes religion no longer works for them, even though the hope was there that it could

i probably said way too much, but, anyway, thanks for your interest

 

[Mister Emu]

Some people think they can worship Christ of No Impositions, but there is no such Christ.

 

[exchemist]

absolutely no anger

i do realize i see some things very differently than most Christians

i do realize I sometimes sound much more dramatic than the intent

i try to start out by NOT sharing my religious opinion, which really serves no purpose unless a person is seeking something different

i was raised Catholic, back in the day when the sermons were Latin only

i went my first two years of school in Catholic school

my wonderful grandparents and my dad, and all the other relatives n that side of the family were Catholic all their lives

as I got older I gave up religion, but when I hit 62 decided to give it another try
in pentacostalism, unfortunately

that ended a few years ago, and now I’m in religion limbo

it was a major bust, but I learned a lot

what did I learn?

how not to be

Catholic church has a lot of positives, and Catholics who lead a good life are wonderful people

i really love the present Pope. who knows, we may differ on him?

my personal choice between Catholic and Protestant at this day, should I determine that I need a religion, would definitely be Catholic

i have just come to a point where I can’t agree to things that seem wrong to me, pretty much the list of things I posted above
if I could attend church and be a helpful, loving person to the best of my ability in all my church interactions, then that would be fine
but the main Christian religions require certain things of us when we join
it’s not easy when one realizes religion no longer works for them, even though the hope was there that it could

i probably said way too much, but, anyway, thanks for your interest

Your remark about sermons in Latin made me laugh.

Actually, I have found the Latin mass quite useful on occasions. When I lived for a while in The Hague I went to (beautifully sung) Latin masses at the parish church, because I couldn't understand Dutch. Like you, I'm old enough to remember pre-Vatican II, and have the advantage of having been taught Latin at school, so I know my way around the Latin mass. When it came to the sermon (in Dutch of course), I used to take my tiny son off to a side aisle and read him illustrated bible stories.

I have a great deal of time for Francis. Benedict was good in one respect only, I think, and that was his interest in reviving the traditional music of the church. I felt it was dreadful that much of the Catholic church seemed to have turned its back on a thousand year old artistic heritage, in order to try to be hip and trendy (which never works).