1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Job: is God tricked by Satan?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 9-10ths_Penguin, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    3,688
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    Most Christian readers of Job seem to sympathize with Job’s “friends “, whom God Himself said are ignorant jerks.
     
  2. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    4,208
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    Religion:
    pagan, omnist
    I think, God wins here, thanks to Satan. Satan saw the happiness but he also saw the conditions. He proposed the opposite to God and God saw it too and agreed. In the OT, Satan is a servant and loyal to God and he does excellent job, actually.
     
  3. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    Nope. God was playing Satan. He knew the ultimate result. And that Satan would lose.
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    If God won the bet, what did he win?

    If God was playing Satan, God must have gotten something of value from Satan. What was it?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    What did God win? The battle! It's not as if God needs anything other than to be who he is and he is always ultimately victorious.
    You don't understand God if you think he needs some tangible prize. He received what he deserves, praise for being the creator and King.
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    So nothing then.

    So...

    - he handed Job and the people around him over to Satan for torment.
    - he, not Satan, was the one who had to give restitution (but only to one of the people who was tormented).
    - in return, he got his ego stroked.

    This does not cast God in a good light.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    In your opinion and using your warped view of the situation perhaps.
    Once you understand that none of us would exist apart from God's creating and maintenance of everything one would think you would stop judging God for allowing a world where fallen angels and people's free will causes suffering. This world is a test. It's not the final destination. As such it will never be a perfect place to live.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    What part do you disagree with? I thought I gave a fair interpretation of what you said.

    Just to be clear: I'm not judging God. I'm judging you.

    I don't think that your god exists. OTOH, I think it says something about your morality - and the morality of people who make similar arguments - when you see nothing objectionable in God's actions in the hypothetical scenario offered by Job.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,456
    Ratings:
    +9,568
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    This story, like many in the Bible, was written with the intent that it be used to inspire contemplation, discussion, and even debate among the religious adherents. The males would gather together, read these stories, and discuss the inexplicable nature of their God. And at the time, this conscious grappling with the mystery of God was considered a most righteous use of a man's time and attention. These stories were not intended to give the readers pat 'answers' about God's will or nature. They were meant to make the reader think long and hard about what God's will and nature are, especially in relation to the circumstances of their own lives.

    One of the reasons God was depicted as being so inexplicable, in those days, was to remind the readers that their God was absolute. And thereby beyond human comprehension.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes it means I understand that I don't understand everything about how an all powerful being runs the universe. Which is one of the main points of the book, that Job could not comprehend Gods job description.
    Morality does not even exist objectively without God existing, BTW, so any moral judgement you make is just your limited human perspective that can change at any given moment.
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    I don't get that from the book. God's justification for his behaviour seems to more be "might makes right."

    Nonsense, of course.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    Did you actually read it? I don't recall that God never makes such a statement.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Read God's speech starting at Job 40:6. To argue that he can do as he pleases, God goes on about his power and great deeds. To argue against the idea that Job is in a position to judge God, God goes on about how much weaker Job is than God.

    An excerpt:

    8Would you indeed annul[k] my justice?
    Would you declare me guilty so that you might be right?
    9 Do you have an arm as powerful as God’s,[l]
    and can you thunder with a voice like his?
    10 Adorn yourself, then, with majesty and excellency,
    and clothe yourself with glory and honor.
     
  14. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    That's not saying might makes right. It's just pointing out the obvious. We aren't in any position to judge God. And we definitely aren't in any position to save ourselves.
    BTW, many believe that the Leviathan in Job 41 is Satan.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,873
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Satan never got what he wanted because all he really wanted was for Job to "curse God to his face". (Job 1:11; Job 2:5) Which Job would not do. In fact he didn't curse God at all even though his wife suggested it. And yet Job was probably pretty mad at God. We see he does complain about what God is doing and even goes so far as to say that God is wrong and unfair but he would never curse God regardless. So Satan lost and never got what he wanted.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,365
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Actually, it never says that is what Satan wanted. Satan in Job 1:11 and 2:5 is simply making predictions.
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    62,310
    Ratings:
    +20,094
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Anyone with a knowledge of good and evil is in a position to judge God.

    And according to Genesis, humanity has the ability to judge good and evil "as God." That was what got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden... no?

    What does that have to do with the issue?
     
  18. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    2,376
    Ratings:
    +488
    Religion:
    Christian
    It has everything to do with the issue. We are ignorant little amoebas compared to the almighty, all knowing creator of everything. And good and evil are vague and meaningless conceptions without an ultimate authority.
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,873
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    He complains that God put a hedge around Job so he(Satan) can't get to him. (Job 1:10) This implies that Satan wants to torture people like he did to Job. The fact that Job out of everyone on earth at the time was protected really seems to bother him. He was saying that Job was only righteous because of the hedge and all the blessings.

    Once God let the hedge down; Satan was clearly doing everything possible to make him curse God. So I'm justified in saying he wanted it to happen.

    I believe this is because Satan himself is already damned and he tempts humans to make himself feel better. Like "See, they did it too; I'm not so bad after all." Or he might even argue that God deserves it and so he(Satan) is right to hate God.

    So when Job refused to sin; this was a big win for humanity (those who want to be righteous) and a loss for Satan because it proved Satan was bad.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,098
    Ratings:
    +3,365
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Jews simply have an entirely different take. In Judaism, angels have no free will, so they cannot rebel. Satan works for God--he can only do those things which God specifically allows, as we see in Job. Ultimately, the buck stops with God, not Satan, for what happened to Job. Satan is the adversary and the accuser -- his job is to create situations where faith can be tempted, in order for free will to exist. It's a nasty job, but someone's gotta do it. :)
     
Loading...