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Featured Job: is God tricked by Satan?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 9-10ths_Penguin, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. People_Lack_Integrity

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    Again, if Job was a righteous man....and god knows everything, then the test was completely unnecessary. I don't know if you've ever had a family...but I love my wife and son dearly...and if a god took them away as a part of some unnecessary pissing contest and then when it was over said, "here, I know I allowed your family to be killed...but I'll give you riches and another family"...I would tell him to rightly go F himself, that I want my family back, that they did nothing to deserve that and that he can keep his "riches" and that I don't want a new family. But maybe that's because I love my family more than some tyrannical being who is so insecure that he has to play games with people's lives to feel better about himself.
     
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  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call it even a test.

    I believe they didn't deserve anything more. I don't think anyone actually has done anything to deserve life from God. What have you done to deserve to live? I think God gives life as a gift, not as a reward.

    I think they had rejected God. What do you think, if person rejects God, should God forcibly intervene in such persons life?
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The question is not whether Job deserved life from God. The question is whether he deserved suffering.
     
  4. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Was Job’s family good?

    Wasn’t Job’s sons prostituting their sisters?

    I never advocate mentioning family in a forum but since you brought them into it: Suppose your sons were prostituting your daughters - and the daughters welcomed it - to your greatest shangrin!!!

    And your wife is telling you to ‘Curse [your] God and die”.. which shows she is not in your righteousness - she is not a compliant wife!!

    You pray every day for their forgiveness.

    You are ashamed of your children’s behaviour.

    You yearn for a righteous family.

    You suffer for them, begging God every day and night… your house has become a den of iniquity.. oh the pain of it is tremendous - the Shame, the humiliation, the torture.

    But you remain in your righteousness despite all the setbacks!

    Then all is tested and done - God gives you a righteous wife with a righteous set of children….

    And you say you prefer the unrighteousness family?

    Hmmm… let me see….! Lot’s wife ‘looking back and yearning for the life she had in Sodom’…

    ‘Pillar of Salt’ springs to mind, here!!
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    What God condones in the story is the inflicting of terrible suffering on Job, with the one restriction against inflicting physical harm on Job himself (though even that restriction is relaxed by the end, since God agrees to let Satan inflict Job with boils).

    If someone killed your entire family, would you think that you hadn't suffered at all?

    Of course, the story only mentions compensation for Job, not for any of the human beings who the author considers Job's property (i.e. his wife and children).

    That aside, even if the compensation was adequate, it still points to a problem. There's more imperfection in having a flaw and fixing it than there is in not allowing the flaw in the first place.

    It also does nothing to contradict the idea that God was tricked. In fact, God paying the compensation - as opposed to, say, God forcing Satan to pay the compensation - could be seen as an admission on God's part of feeling culpable for letting himself be tricked.
     
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  6. People_Lack_Integrity

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    But it was god who forcibly intervened in their lives...or are you already forgetting the story?! The family was doing just fine, it was god who approached Satan and said, "Hey what'cha doing? Have you seen my most loyal servant? I'll bet you he'll follow me even when you take away everything from him!" Remember, Satan couldn't do anything...until god allowed it. So god forcibly intervened in Job's life, allowed his family to be killed, his life to be ruined and then afterwards said, "See, I told you so Satan!"
     
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  7. People_Lack_Integrity

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  8. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I could think even from less that I have suffered. Still, it may not be wrong thing.

    The others seem to have been unrighteous and perhaps got their punishment for sin.
     
  9. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    For such mortal enemies, God and Satan sure hang out a lot together.
     
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  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    In Judaism, Satan is not a mortal enemy of God. He is God's employee. Angels are considered to not have free will, thus there is no such thing as a rebellion of angels or fallen angels. The Job of HaSatan is to accuse and tempt, in order for free will to exist. You see HaSatan acting in exactly this role in the opening of Job.
     
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  11. People_Lack_Integrity

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    There's nothing about Job that indicates that that they were sinful or unrighteous. Again, the most it says is that Job would pray for his kids just in case they were sinful...doesn't say they were. Either way, you, like the others seem to think it's ok to kill a family if they aren't "righteous". So if god ordered you to kill a family because they were "sinful" or "unrighteous"...you'd do it? Again, this is the horror of christianity is it makes people lose their humanity and see other people as not human anymore, but something evil or demonic that it's now ok to kill them or be ok with god killing them, or being ok with god allowing another being to kill them and torture them. That's disgusting. To just casually say "Well they seem to have been unrighteous" as if that makes it ok for god to have been playing with Job's life and allowing Satan to kill his family...shows exactly what I mean. You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy for human life, all for this evil god.
     
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  12. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    No, because it is possible that I could be wrong and also because:

    "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you."
    Mat. 7:1-2



    Sin is basically that person rejects God. Why should God intervene to someone’s life who doesn’t want God in his life? I think for example Job’s wife was not righteous because she said:

    … "Do you still maintain your integrity? Renounce God, and die."
    Job. 2:9

    I think God has given life, therefore He has also the right to decide how long life He gives. None has done anything to deserve more than what God gives. If God would give me only one day, I think I should still be thankful, because I would not deserve even that by my own merits.


    So, you think that everything should be accepted from humans, otherwise “You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy”? Is there some good reason to give eternal life for evil and unrighteous people?
     
  13. Cherub

    Cherub New Member

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    Just like I said, Satan raised the issue of Jobs's integrity to YHWH in front of trillions of spectators (angels). He said the only reason Job served God was because of the riches provided. Remember, too; this wasn't just a local issue; it is a worldwide issue. So who to obey, Satan or YHWH.
     
    #33 Cherub, Aug 21, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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  14. gospelsaves

    gospelsaves Member

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    This was not a bet. When God asks a question it’s not for Him to find out information LOL. It’s for YOU to realize what YOU have done! He is God, meaning omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. So when he asked Satan “Where were you?” God fully knew what Satan was up to. Satan says “Roaming the Earth” basically doing what I always do. Then God asks him “Have you considered my servant Job” … again when God asks you something He is God (Omnicient)…it is NOT for Him to find out information. It’s for YOU to realize your actions.

    When God said “Have you considered my servant Job” that was not God putting something into the mind of Satan. Satan had already had it in his heart to do things to Job. Why we can know that? The next statements prove it. Satans says “Does Job fear you for nothing”…then Satan goes on how God put a hedge of blessings all around Job. Satan said God blesses his flocks, blesses everything he puts hands to, blesses his household…just blesses everything! How would he know that UNLESS Satan already had his eye on him? And God knew that! Because God is omniscient.

    That is how this came about. God wasn’t tricked. Satan said that the only reason Job loved God was due to him being blessed, and if all those blessings were removed Job would turn on God. God knew this wasn’t true because God is omniscient and can see into a mans heart. Satan made those accusations in front of all heaven. If God said “no” you can’t touch him, maybe this would have put doubt in other heavenly beings mind that maybe Satan was right. If God had just destroyed Satan at that moment maybe that would have put doubt in other heavenly beings mind that maybe Satan is right. Only God is omniscient. This was not a bet, God allowed Satan to carry out his false claim with one caveat he could not kill Job. In the end, all heaven saw God was right (of course), Satan of course was wrong.
     
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  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I don't any of that challenges God's reputation.

    Indeed, it is very clear that Satan could only do what God allowed. It is simply his job as God's employee to accuse and tempt.
     
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  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    And to kill innocent people (as God allowed)?
     
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  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    What does this have to do with Satan? Please stay focused.
     
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    One of the first things that happens in the story is that Satan has Job's children and servants killed.

    ... with God's blessing, as you point out.
     
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  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes. God is the author of life and death.
     
  20. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I think Job isn’t the main character but the McGuffin. He’s just the plot device to reveal how easily God is tempted and how fickle His loyalty is to those who serve Him.
     
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