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Featured Job: is God tricked by Satan?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 9-10ths_Penguin, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

    In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

    Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

    This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I consider God and Satan like the whole thing regarding Luke and the Empire.

    Luke is the hero in the stories. Yet if you add things up, he may have killed more people and did more destruction than the Empire.

    Edit: It may sound like I'm joking. But I'm trying to be serious and use an analogy.
     
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  3. Erebus

    Erebus Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, I was thinking about exactly this earlier today.

    If you interpret Satan as an evil being that delights in human suffering then yes, it seems that Satan outplayed God here. God may have won the wager but I don't see what benefit there was for him apart from being able to say, "I told you so!" If I bet somebody that I couldn't spend all their money in a single night, can they really consider themselves a winner if I only manage to burn through 80% of their savings?

    In my opinion, this story makes more sense if you view Satan as an angel who serves God by pointing out mankind's flaws. Satan's goal in that interpretation wouldn't be to cause suffering for the fun of it or to win a bet against God. He'd be more akin to somebody providing a writer with constructive criticism.

    I still wouldn't say it shows God in a particularly good light but it at least doesn't give the impression that he was manipulated.
     
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  4. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    (Color coded for explanations)

    Job 6-12: One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

    ---------

    Alright, so here we see Satan roaming around in Heaven. Satan is there with the angels as one of them; they are the council, the Sons of God. Satan is named because he is the head of that council, and is the most important. He is the Prosecutor.

    Next, we see Yahweh ask the council where they have been, for no purpose other than narrative information to the reader. Here he asks Satan, as chief of the council, but his question is directed to the council as a whole body. Satan, in a likewise manner, answers for the group. Then, Yahweh boasts to Satan (and the council,) his servant Job, and what a great man he is. The council will have already known this, and yet again this serves only as narrative information. Satan then offers the possibility that Job might not be so great.

    Taking this into consideration, Yahweh then gives Satan, as the Prosecutor, leave to test Job's faith. Notice that Satan could not act on this testing until given the express command of Yahweh? He lacks the authority to act. Ergo all "Satan's actions" are in fact Yahweh's, as they come from his direct command.
     
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  5. People_Lack_Integrity

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    This whole story is weird, because it paints what is supposed to be a perfect being...as very human. "God", gets tempted and roped into a bet with Satan all to prove the loyalty of one of his subjects. If god knows his heart and knows the future, then why is the bet even necessary? Second, this also reveals the limitations of Satan's power in that he can only cause strife and chaos for Job, when it is allowed by god. That is pretty damning as far as what goes on in the world that is blamed on Satan, when according to this, evil by Satan can only happen when allowed by god. Third, if you take a body count of all the people killed by Satan, the majority come from this story. Satan only is allowed to kill about a dozen people total, meanwhile god kills millions of his own subjects. So this story paints god as petty, imperfect, uncaring about human suffering and that he really is the one who allows evil. Make of that what you will.
     
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  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    God is not tricked by Satan. It is obvious from the scene that Satan can only do what God allows. God is the boss, Satan is the employee.

    I have read that many scholars consider the opening to the book of Job to be an addition from later in history. IOW Satan functions as the literary device to explain why the bad stuff happened. But in the original version, this explanation was not there.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well, according to my studies, the story of Job is very important because it was not just Job whose faith was tested out here....but by extension it includes all of us.

    Job 1:8-12....
    " And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.”

    Job 2:3-6...
    "And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” 4 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”

    What do you notice in both cases? God has already seen that satan has "considered" his servant Job and was in all likelihood thinking of ways to cause his faith to crumble. So in line with the principle at 1 Corinthians 10:13, God allowed Job (the most faithful man of earth at the time) to be tested in behalf of us all....giving satan an answer to his two most baseless challenges.....(Proverbs 27:11)

    1) That humans will only serve God if he blesses them...or for for they get out of it. If they lose all the things that are precious to them, they will leave God and even curse him.

    2) That if a person's life is at stake, they will save their own lives and forsake their Creator, proving that they do not love him enough to suffer and die for him. By saying "all that a man has" satan was including all of mankind.

    Job's example rings down through history because God's servants have all suffered at the hands of the devil and his henchmen, at some point....even Jesus Christ.

    Job 1:22...Job 2:10....
    " In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong."...."In all this Job did not sin with his lips."

    What would we have done? Would we have cursed God and abandoned him?

    These examples show us that if they could hold on to their integrity in the most extreme circumstances, then we can too. The end always justifies the means. (Job 42:12, 16-17)

    God rewards those who stand up for what is right in his eyes...even at their own expense.
     
  8. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, thanks for showing the scripture in the beginning, good start for a debate.

    One thing that I think is good to notice first is, Job was” a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil.” Apparently, the others were not. And if others have rejected God, should God still protect them from what they have chosen? I think this is the reason why others than Job were not protected.

    What the story tells to me is:
    1. Satan was wrong, God was right. God knew that Job is loyal to him.
    2. Satan has no problem in torturing and killing for petty reasons. Would you torture others in futile attempt to show all-knowing wrong?
    3. God compensates all difficulties for Job, thus showing He is good and merciful.

    I think the story of the Job shows the true nature of Satan and God. And by it, I think Satan is evil and God is not. Satan doesn’t know the best, God knows. This is why I believe God allowed it all to happen. And if someone was tricked, it was Satan, because he revealed for all to see that he is evil. It is amazing that still many seem to want to work for Satan and do his job in deceiving people away from truth and love.
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    And do you think that it was worth the cost for God to find this out?

    What did God really get out of the bet?

    It's worth remembering that everything Satan did in the story, God gave him carte blanche to do... also for petty reasons.

    So God ends up cleaning up the mess after the end.

    Still seems like God was duped.
     
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  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    How do you think the story shows that God is not evil?

    The story begins with God explicitly sanctioning evil, and nowhere in the story does God or the narrator ever try to argue that what God did is actually good. The closest God comes to justifying himself is a monologue where he says, effectively, "I'm powerful and you're not, so I don't need to justify myself to you."

    I don't see anything in the Book of Job that suggests that God is good.
     
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  12. People_Lack_Integrity

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    Quote:
    What the story tells to me is:
    1. Satan was wrong, God was right. God knew that Job is loyal to him. God is supposedly all knowing...so why was the test necessary for him to know that?
    2. Satan has no problem in torturing and killing for petty reasons. Would you torture others in futile attempt to show all-knowing wrong? Apparently this god has no problem allowing torturing and killing for petty reasons. If God knew the outcome anyways, why would he allow one of his most loyal subjects to be tortured in an unnecessary bet?
    3. God compensates all difficulties for Job, thus showing He is good and merciful. God allowed this man to be tortured and suffered greatly...and you think that because god gave him a new family and a good life...that the end justifies the means? Remember, he did not get his former family back! I'm sure Job still suffered on missing his family that was taken away from him, even with a new family. What would you think of someone who tortured someone, killed their family and then gave them 100 million dollars afterwards? You'd think that person was a monster, especially if it was a human being. We would all hold that human being as scum of the earth who tried to buy off the fact that he just murdered a family and tortured a guy. Yet because it is your god, you give him a pass simply because it is god and show your hypocrisy.

    I think what this story truly shows is that god is the evil one, because evil only exists in the world and bad stuff happens only if god allows it. So anytime someone dies a horrible death, gets cancer, has suffering visited upon them...it's because god allowed it. When psychopaths are created and murder, rape or hurt someone...it's god allowing it. This story clearly says that Satan has no power in this world and can't do anything without god's permission. Personally for me, if I knew there was someone like this and I had them in jail...I wouldn't ever let them out to cause more harm to people I care about. Yet that's exactly what your god does. If you have someone who has a psychopath at their disposal and occasionally let's them out to do bad stuff, then cages them back up....then that person is the truly evil one, because he knows exactly what he has and what that person will do and let's them out anyways. It makes absolutely no sense that this same god, who created evil, allows it and could destroy it at anytime, but doesn't....is the good one.
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It shows it by showing God does not do anything evil.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    There was no bet. And God knew how it goes, as the story shows. So, it was not for God to know something. It was more likely for us to know.
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    You don't consider it evil to hand someone over to Satan?

    So the Lord said to Satan, “All right then,[bc] everything he has is[bd] in your power.
     
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  16. People_Lack_Integrity

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    It's amazing to me you could say that. If you saw on the news someone being beaten mercilessly and there's a cop nearby and does nothing...everyone and I mean everyone will immediately say "Why isn't the cop stopping this?!?!" Then afterwards, the cop would be fired, sued, probably thrown in jail for failing to render assistance. In this case god allowed Job to be tortured, his family killed and god could have stopped it, but not only didn't, but said, "You know what...have your way with him Satan!" That's evil!
     
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  17. Cherub

    Cherub New Member

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    No, He was not tricked. Satan raised an issue in front of trillions of angels.YHWH had to settle the issue because his reputation was at state.
     
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  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think that cop analogy is really true. People don’t seem to have any problem for example with that police murdered Ashli Babbitt. When police use violence against people that are not liked, it is usually not a problem.

    The Job story indicates the ones who were killed, had rejected God and were allowed to be without God and His protection. Should God help people who don’t want it?

    By what I have understood, Job was a righteous man. That is why I think he would not have deserved what Satan did to him. That is why I believe God compensated the trouble Job had to endure.
     
  19. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    That says, everything he had was in his power. I don’t think it is same as that Job also would be.

    But anyway, I think it was not evil, because God knew that the outcome was good and he compensated everything for Job.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Why do you think God's reputation was at stake?
     
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