Job and Chaos; It's okay to question God

[amatuerscholar]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

Abraham didn't take god at his word without question. He wanted to save the innocent people in Saddam so he disagree with god killing everyone in sight and just kill the "bad guys." His lord listened after a couple tries. That makes me think....

 

[1213]

...
Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

I think, if people question God, they should also question everyone else, even themselves. For example, what if Adam and Eve would have questioned not only God, but also the serpent? It is interesting that people usually seem to question only the information they don’t like.

 

[amatuerscholar]

I think, if people question God, they should also question everyone else, even themselves. For example, what if Adam and Eve would have questioned not only God, but also the serpent? It is interesting that people usually seem to question only the information they don’t like.

We should question a lot of things. There is nothing wrong with that. And Job is in fact questioning conventional wisdom, which I point out. More so, questioning God has nothing to do with not liking God.

 

[Hawkins]

It's ok to question God. However bear in mind that God's job here is to save you. So don't let it be the stumbling block of your own salvation.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Job is a brilliant work but, with all due respect, why would one invest time in producing an amateur podcast when there's a wealth of scholarship on this material?

For those interested, one exceptional resource is The Wisdom Books: Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, a translation and commentary by Robert Alter.

 

[amatuerscholar]

Job is a brilliant work but, with all due respect, why would one invest time in producing an amateur podcast when there's a wealth of scholarship on this material?

For those interested, one exceptional resource is The Wisdom Books: Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, a translation and commentary by Robert Alter.

I will second the book recommendation. Great work. As for the amateur podcast, I phrased it like that as I'm not a professional scholar. I don't teach at a university, I don't have a doctorates, but I'm working on a master's degree.

The reason I started the podcast is because while there is a wealth of information, diving into it all can be expensive, very time consuming, and often it can be daunting because a lot of the scholarship is written not the lay person, but for people with a background in it.

 

[Koldo]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

'Who am I to question God?' is the one conclusion to draw from reading Job. God goes to great lenghts to get that point across.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

'Who am I to question God?' is the one conclusion to draw from reading Job. God goes to great lenghts to get that point across.

I would suggest that the 'lesson' is both quite obvious and quite secondary.

 

[Koldo]

I would suggest that the 'lesson' is both quite obvious and quite secondary.

And yet not even mentioned in the OP.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And yet not even mentioned in the OP.

I believe that it was appropriately addressed here ...

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

 

[Koldo]

I believe that it was appropriately addressed here ...

​

I challenge you to show, by listing the premises and how the conclusion follows from them, how that part in the OP properly addresses what I was saying.

Don't worry though, whether you accept it or refuse it you will entertain me with whatever you reply.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I challenge you to show, by listing the premises and how the conclusion follows from them, how that part in the OP properly addresses what I was saying.

Don't worry though, whether you accept it or refuse it you will entertain me with whatever you reply.

<igmore-list>

bye

</ignore-list>

 

[Koldo]

<igmore-list>

bye

</ignore-list>

As I have said, your reply would entertain me one way or another. I had a good laugh. That made my day. Thank you.

 

[steveb1]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

Except in Job, suffering does not "simply happen". It is deliberately directed to righteous Job from YHVH to test Job's loyalty. YHVH makes a pact with Satan and does every vile thing possible to Job, short of killing him. This is not misfortune. It is divine paranoia and sadism combined. Thus the book of Job does not at all address the problem of evil as defined as worldly tragedy and misfortune. On the contrary, it is a portrait of a righteous human being enduring inexplicable torment inflicted by an evil deity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

Consider who else not only questioned, but argued: Abraham and Moses. Jacob got into a fight.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Consider who else not only questioned, but argued: Abraham and Moses. Jacob got into a fight.

Regarding Jacob, I seem to recall that the only 'argument' had was ...

"Let me go, for dawn is breaking.” But he answered, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Regarding Jacob, I seem to recall that the only 'argument' had was ...

​

I said that Jacob got into a fight. This is why his name was changed to Israel, aka "Contends with God." If you think that is wrong, please do share your ideas with me. I'm always open to learning.

 

[Thief]

Reading through Job and the chaos

So I'm including a link to a podcast and article that I made about Job, for those who want to more in depth look at the subject. But my basic argument is that most people misunderstand the book of Job because they only focus on a very small part of it. They focus on the beginning and end, but never get into the heart of the matter. But the beginning and end, the traditional story we see about Job, is really what the book of Job is arguing against.

The basic message of Job is two fold. First, unlike what conventional wisdom said at that time, suffering sometimes simply happens. Good people can suffer and experience evil, and it has nothing to do with anything wrong they did.

Second, it's okay to question and challenge God. We may not always get the answer we want, but we can still question.

oooops

the sons of GOD(plural) gathered to present themselves
and with them came the devil

and God Himself got in the devil's face......from whence comest thou?
that is to say....what the hell are YOU doing here?

oh......I come and go as I damn well please to

have you considered the LEAST of my servants?......Job
(an insult)

Job worships You for cause of what You give him

Then do as you will unto him
but do not kill him

HERE IS WHERE THE MISUNDERSTANDING BEGINS...!!!!!

JOB ….had nothing to prove
GOD....had nothing to prove
it was the devil......insulted by comparison to a SERVANT...….rather than a SON

it was the devil trying to prove himself greater than the least of servants

that the devil was set upon and AGAINST Job
was NOT a commandment by God

it was allowed
the devil was allowed his own will
against Job

and Job gave NO recognition of the devil
the Lord gives
the Lord takes away

as if the devil had no hand ……..at all

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I said that Jacob got into a fight.

All kinds of Biblical folk "got into a fight." I'm not at all clear as to why you would think that has anything whatsoever to do with the book of Job.

This is why his name was changed to Israel, aka "Contends with God."

Perhaps. It's an interesting - but different - topic.