Jews Only: Let's discuss the Hebrew Scriptures

[Harel13]

So one of my thoughts in my studying of the Hebrew Scriptures, specifically 1 Chronicles for now, is the thorough explanation of the genealogies. I always find it faith building. So many people that claim to believe in the Bible claim it is not to be taken literally, but the genealogies prove to me that actually, the Bible was lived by real people with real lives. 1 Chronicles 2:7 describes Achar or Achan as the troubler of Israel. My mind took me back to Ahab in 1 Kings 18 when he accused EliYah of being the troubler of Israel in verse 16 - 18. " When he saw EliYah, he said to him, “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?”18 “I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned Yahweh's commands and have followed the Baals."

Ahab in a sense was calling EliYah an Achan, and EliYah didn't stand for that. I just thought it was interesting using that term 'troubler of Israel'. I haven't looked at this term in a concordance though so I might be way off, haha.

Troubler isn't a very good translation. It's more someone who dirtied Israel spiritually. Now that you mention it, it is an odd use of phraseology by Achav. Of course, Eliyahu is correct when saying that he (Achav) himself is such a dirtier, but why would Achav be using that term in the first place?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Troubler isn't a very good translation. It's more someone who dirtied Israel spiritually.

Robert Alter renders 1 Chronicles 2:7:

And the sons of Carmi, Achar, who stirred up trouble against Israel when he betrayed the ban.​

He then notes:

7. Achar. In the story of the violation of the ban in Joshua 7, this figure is called Achan. Here the name has been "corrected" to Achar in order to make it identical with the Hebrew verb that means "to stir up trouble," "to muddy," "to roil."​

 

[dybmh]

ok, here's a question:

In 1st Chron 2:1 and 2:2 the tribes are out of chronological order? Maybe they are grouped maternally? IDK. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Harel13]

Robert Alter renders 1 Chronicles 2:7:

And the sons of Carmi, Achar, who stirred up trouble against Israel when he betrayed the ban.​

He then notes:

7. Achar. In the story of the violation of the ban in Joshua 7, this figure is called Achan. Here the name has been "corrected" to Achar in order to make it identical with the Hebrew verb that means "to stir up trouble," "to muddy," "to roil."​

I hear what you're saying. However, the Hebrew term "מים עכורים" - "Mayim Achurim" - doesn't mean troubled water but dirty water. Now that I'm thinking about it a little more, in some sense, I suppose, trouble could also be related to dirty or dirtying - ruining some sort of balance in the object. Per such a definition, Achav calling Eliyahu a "ruiner of balance" makes sense - and perhaps Eliyahu answered him similarly but meant it more in the direction of spiritually dirtying, whereas Achav was probably referring to ruining the balance of the kingdom, of the ability to properly govern and allow the people to carry on proper lives.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I hear what you're saying. However, the Hebrew term "מים עכורים" - "Mayim Achurim" - doesn't mean troubled water but dirty water. Now that I'm thinking about it a little more, in some sense, I suppose, trouble could also be related to dirty or dirtying - ruining some sort of balance in the object. Per such a definition, Achav calling Eliyahu a "ruiner of balance" makes sense - and perhaps Eliyahu answered him similarly but meant it more in the direction of spiritually dirtying, whereas Achav was probably referring to ruining the balance of the kingdom, of the ability to properly govern and allow the people to carry on proper lives.

Nachum Sarna, editor of the latest JPS Torah translation, one noted that the most repeated comment in that work is something akin to "Heb. meaning uncertain." Word meanings migrate, vernacular changes, idioms perish and their recovery is difficult at best, and punning is ubiquitous.

This is why I so appreciate, and defer to, the scholarship of scholars such as Robert Alter. He could be wrong (after all, Heb. meaning uncertain), but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Troubler isn't a very good translation. It's more someone who dirtied Israel spiritually. Now that you mention it, it is an odd use of phraseology by Achav. Of course, Eliyahu is correct when saying that he (Achav) himself is such a dirtier, but why would Achav be using that term in the first place?

Good afternoon Harel13. Thank you for your contribution. Excellent point. I didn't realise 'troubler' wasn't a good translation. Why would Achav use that term? Well from the context I contend that Achav blamed EliYah for the famine, announced previously by EliYah. At that time, it was so severe that Obadiah was looking for grass for his horses so they wouldn't starve - no doubt for his army. Achav's attitude is in my opinion typical of those who blame the results of sin on the people of Yahweh. The Jews were blamed for the Black Death in the mid-1300s for example, whereas the people should have been calling for a return to the commandments of Yahweh. Guilty people play the blame game all the time according to the Bible, and this is proven all the way with Adam and Eve where they blamed each other for their sin. People often forget in the Torah there is an indication that those nearest to the problem should shoulder the responsibility of that problem in Deuteronomy 21:1-3.

Achav couldn't have been referring to dirtying Israel spiritually, because he himself was a evil person, that's true, as according to 1 Kings 16:30, which says "Ahab son of Omri did more evil in the eyes of the Yahweh than any of those before him." He must have been talking about something else. Undoubtedly, animals and people died during this famine and it's that what was probably on Achav's mind when he called him that. In Ezekiel and Jeremiah, they are prophetic passages referring to a famine that will brought upon the land because of sin. I wonder, will people again blame Yahweh, or blame His representatives as Achav did, if this were to take place? I think so.

But I was thinking, why a famine? Perhaps famines are brought upon the world because of the spiritual famines that Yahweh can see in the lives of people such as we read in Amos 8:11. This isn't a literal famine as we normally consider a famine. This is a spiritual famine. When King David numbered the children of Israel, not listening to the Word of Yahweh, and his general Joab regarding not doing so, one of the punishments offered to David was three years of famine in 2 Samuel 24:13. Famines can come about by not listening to the Word of Yahweh.

I have a question though. Do you feel that what Amos described in Amos 8:11, the famine not of bread or water, is here already? I feel that even on RF, the discussions are more about people's opinions than what the Word says. Some threads, the Word isn't discussed at all.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Harel13]

Good afternoon Harel13. Thank you for your contribution. Excellent point. I didn't realise 'troubler' wasn't a good translation. Why would Achav use that term?

Hey @Messianic Israelite I changed my mind. See:

I hear what you're saying. However, the Hebrew term "מים עכורים" - "Mayim Achurim" - doesn't mean troubled water but dirty water. Now that I'm thinking about it a little more, in some sense, I suppose, trouble could also be related to dirty or dirtying - ruining some sort of balance in the object. Per such a definition, Achav calling Eliyahu a "ruiner of balance" makes sense - and perhaps Eliyahu answered him similarly but meant it more in the direction of spiritually dirtying, whereas Achav was probably referring to ruining the balance of the kingdom, of the ability to properly govern and allow the people to carry on proper lives.

I have a question though. Do you feel that what Amos described in Amos 8:11, the famine not of bread or water, is here already? I feel that even on RF, the discussions are more about people's opinions than what the Word says. Some threads, the Word isn't discussed at all.

I don't think so. The prophecy describes a hunger and a thirst for God's word - the one truth, not what a multitude of people think the truth is, but the real, actual truth. We don't see much agreement on that part in the world.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Robert Alter renders 1 Chronicles 2:7:

And the sons of Carmi, Achar, who stirred up trouble against Israel when he betrayed the ban.​

He then notes:

7. Achar. In the story of the violation of the ban in Joshua 7, this figure is called Achan. Here the name has been "corrected" to Achar in order to make it identical with the Hebrew verb that means "to stir up trouble," "to muddy," "to roil."​

Hi Jayhawker. Good morning. Excellent point. I was thinking about what you said last night and I make a comparison between this word meaning "to muddy", "to roll" with the word Phillistine. In the Strong's concordance it says: "פְּלִשְׁתִּי Pᵉlishtîy, pel-ish-tee'; patrial from H6429; a Pelishtite or inhabitant of Pelesheth:—Philistine. However, I have also read that Philistine has more than one definition. The first is that of פְּלֶשֶׁת Pᵉlesheth, pel-eh'-sheth; from H6428; rolling, i.e. migratory; Pelesheth, a region of Syria:—Palestina, Palestine, Philistia, Philistines.However, I also found that the word may mean someone that 'rolls in the dirt' thus dirtying themselves.

I'm not saying that Achan was a Phillistine, I'm saying that there may be a connection between those two words. Indeed, the Phillistines were a trouble to Israel and even stole the Ark of the Covenant from them in the days of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas. Another characteristic of the Philistines seems to be that of coming to Israel and taking or stealing their food, which is what Achan did when he stole what belonged to Yahweh in taking the devoted thing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However, I have also read that Philistine has more than one definition. The first is that of פְּלֶשֶׁת Pᵉlesheth, pel-eh'-sheth; from H6428; rolling, i.e. migratory; Pelesheth, a region of Syria:—Palestina, Palestine, Philistia, Philistines.However, I also found that the word may mean someone that 'rolls in the dirt' thus dirtying themselves.

"Read" where? "Found" where? Knowing sources helps to evaluate speculation.

I'm not saying that Achan was a Phillistine, I'm saying that there may be a connection between those two words. Indeed, the Phillistines were a trouble to Israel and even stole the Ark of the Covenant from them in the days of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas. Another characteristic of the Philistines seems to be that of coming to Israel and taking or stealing their food, which is what Achan did when he stole what belonged to Yahweh in taking the devoted thing.

To quote Missouri Senator George Graham Vest:

"... history is written by the victors and framed according to the prejudices and bias existing on their side."​

I would be very careful about using narratives promulgated by the victor to characterize an entire people.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

"Read" where? "Found" where? Knowing sources helps to evaluate speculation.


To quote Missouri Senator George Graham Vest:

"... history is written by the victors and framed according to the prejudices and bias existing on their side."​

I would be very careful about using narratives promulgated by the victor to characterize an entire people.

Hi Jaywalker. Good morning. I've been trying to find a source where I have read that but am unable to find a good source. I did find another source by a Chr-stian who also said this in a book called Taking On Goliath but I don't know where they got that from either. They say: "In Hebrew the word Philistine means “rolling in dust or wallowing in self.” The only source that alluded to this was abarim publications (The amazing name Palestine: meaning and etymology), where Philistine is mentioned as a related name to meaning to roll in the dirt. I don't read Hebrew like some other people in my faith so I can't really prove this. But in the future I'll be sure to quote from sources when introducing definitions!

In terms of characterising the Philistines, I am weary that simplistic characterisations can be misleading, but the Word does a good job at showing not only the characteristics of people/nations through the definition of their names, but also through their actions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In terms of characterising the Philistines, I am weary that simplistic characterisations can be misleading, but the Word does a good job at showing not only the characteristics of people/nations through the definition of their names, but also through their actions.

But obviously not too weary [sic]. Again ...

"... history is written by the victors and framed according to the prejudices and bias existing on their side."​

.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Hey @Messianic Israelite I changed my mind. See:


I don't think so. The prophecy describes a hunger and a thirst for God's word - the one truth, not what a multitude of people think the truth is, but the real, actual truth. We don't see much agreement on that part in the world.

I think we can determine whether we live in a spiritual famine by asking ourselves if the world shares the same characteristics to those Israelites in the wilderness when they came out of Egypt. The spiritual famine Amos refers to can be applied to that of what the Israelites faced before they were sent bread from heaven. The bread of heaven might be interpreted as the Messiah who will come to this earth to restore an Edenic paradise to this world. With it, he will bring ample knowledge of the Word. Indeed, I would argue that Israel in the wilderness serves as a type for the spiritual famine that Amos referred to would engulf the world before the end of the age. If we interpret Israel in the wilderness to have suffered from not just the literal famine of not having bread or water, but also of not hearing the Word of Yahweh, we can determine that just like with Israel, a characteristic of those enduring this spiritual famine would be murmuring and complaining against Yahweh as the Israelites did. Murmuring and complaining because they’re not hearing the Word of Yahweh. Murmuring and complaining because people are famished spiritually.

This spiritual famine then could be brought about by not being able to drink the water, as was the case at Massah which we can interpret as the Bible not being able to be understood, not being interpreted correctly or not being a delight. We read about this in Jeremiah 6:10.

From Israel in the wilderness, I would say the spiritual famine can be brought about also by not coming to the Rock for water, representing Yahweh (Deut 32:4, Deut 32:18) as Moses had to go out and seek the rock and then strike the rock with his rod to bring forth water for the camp. I think an examination on what the rock means would be a good thing to look at too. Why was Moses punished so harshly for striking the rock twice I wonder? I think there is some great significance in that.

What I’m saying is a close examination of the murmurings of Israel when they were experiencing a type of famine might be an indication of what people will say during the time of a spiritual famine. I would venture to say that they are a lot of murmurers and complainers today against Moses and more specifically against the Law which suggests we are indeed in a time of spiritual famine.