1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jews only: Jeremiah 23:6 vs 33:16

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by TrueBeliever37, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Please explain the variance in Jeremiah 23:6 - "he will call him" versus Jeremiah 33:16 - "he will call her"

    They seem to be related passages, does one just have a typo? If so, which do you feel is correct and why?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. onlytruth

    onlytruth Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Ratings:
    +5
    Religion:
    the religion of adam and eve, follower of the way
    some translations say it. the point is salvation and who will bring it.
     
  3. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,081
    Ratings:
    +2,497
    It seems to me that the verse, 33:16, if referring to Jerusalem.
    It is not uncommon to see Jerusalem referred to as 'her'.
    E,g. Lamentations
    1:1 O how has the city that was once so populous remained lonely! She has become like a widow! She that was great among the nations, a princess among the provinces, has become tributary.
     
  4. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian

    I understand cities are referred to as feminine in the Hebrew. No offense meant, but this question was for the Jews. They understand their language, and I want to know why the difference between the two verses.
     
  5. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,081
    Ratings:
    +2,497
    Well I am a Jew. Although not a religious one, I went of religious schools until the age of 18 and been to yeshiva. So , I have enough background to comment on your OP.

    Most practising Jews are fasting today(Yom Kippur).
    I expect you'll get more answers this evening.
     
  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    ok - Thanks

    Didn't mean any offense, just wanted to make sure it was someone who understands the language, and the Jewish belief.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2016
    Messages:
    137
    Ratings:
    +127
    Religion:
    Orthodox Jewish
    The verb phrase – וְזֶה־שְּׁמוֹ אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרְאוֹv’zeh-sh’mo ʾăsher-yiq’r’o“and this is his name which He will call him – found in Yirm’yahu 23:6 is acting upon the masculine subject – צֶמַח צַדִּיק tzemaḥ tzaddiyq –“righteous seedling” – found in Yirm’yahu 23:5.

    The verb phrase – וְזֶה אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָא־לָהּv’zeh ʾăsher-yiq’raʾ-lah“and this is that which He will call for her – found in Yirm’yahu 33:16 is acting upon the feminine subject – צֶמַח צְדָקָה tzemaḥ tz’daqah“seedling of righteousness – found in Yirm’yahu 33:15.


    Verbs acting upon masculine subjects receive masculine pronouns; verbs acting upon feminine subjects receive feminine pronouns. Just basic Hebrew grammar, no cause for alarm.

     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Yes, but aren't the two verses associated in meaning? In other words actually referring to the same thing?

    In both verses someone or something is being called the same thing, yet one time referred to as masculine and the other feminine. Any idea why this would be?

    What/who is the masculine subject being referred to? And what/who is the feminine subject in the other verse?
     
    #8 TrueBeliever37, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,275
    Ratings:
    +5,249
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Your question is asked and answered by the Malbim Beur Hamilot on Jeremish 23:6:

    הכינוי מוסב על ישראל, שלכן (לקמן ל''ג ט''ו) שבמקום ישראל כתוב ירושלים, אמר אשר יקרא לה

    He is called: The (nick)name is attributed to Israel [וְיִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יִשְׁכֹּ֣ן לָבֶ֑טַח], therefore, where instead of Israel, Jerusalem is written (33:15) [וִירוּשָׁלִַ֖ם תִּשְׁכּ֣וֹן לָבֶ֑טַח], the text says "She is called."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Thanks rosends,
    That was what I wanted to know, the Jewish take on the verses.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,026
    Ratings:
    +11,918
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That being taken care of, I assume it will be alright if an agnostic throws in his 2 cents.

    Looking at nine Christian commentaries, only three take up the issue, which seems a bit odd, but in any case,

    "She" represents some future city

    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
    She will be a city marked by a righteousness which will be the gift of Jehovah; He will inscribe that name on her banners, and. grave it on her portals. It is obvious that this throws light on the meaning of the title as applied to the King.

    "She" represents Jerusalem

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
    Jerusalem—In Jer 23:6, instead of this, it is "Israel." "The name" in the Hebrew has here to be supplied from that passage; and for "he" (Messiah, the antitypical "Israel"), the antecedent there (Isa 49:3), we have "she" here, that is, Jerusalem.

    "She" represents Jerusalem

    Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
    In consequence of the renovation of Israel externally and internally, Jerusalem will become to the Lord a name of delight, i.e., a name which affords joy, delight. שׁם here signifies, not fame, but a name. But the name, as always in Scripture, is the expression of the essential nature; the meaning therefore is, "she will develope into a city over which men will rejoice, whenever her name is mentioned."

    So whereas "Him" in Jeremiah 23:6 refers to "the Lord," the "she" in Jeremiah 33:16 refers to a city.

    .
     
  12. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Hi rosends,

    I just noticed your view of this appears to be a little different than that stated in post #7.

    You seem to be saying the "he" is referring to Israel. While post #7 appears to be saying, the righteous branch (the Messiah) in verse 5 is the "he" being referred to. (Which is the way I have always seen it.)

    It's kind of odd, the verbs associated with the Branch are masculine, yet for some reason the word righteous was rendered feminine in one verse.
     
    #12 TrueBeliever37, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    I am glad you responded. It got me to looking at this closer. I didn't necessarily agree with all that had been said, but wasn't going to debate it, as all I wanted was the Jewish view. But it seems there is a little variation in the Jewish view, regarding who the he and she is referring to.
     
    #13 TrueBeliever37, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,275
    Ratings:
    +5,249
    Religion:
    Jewish
    You would have to ask the writer of post 7. I am just citing a particular commentary on the text who explains the grammar question you ask.
     
  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Ok, so on your part, why would the word "righteous" be masculine in Jeremiah 23:5 , yet feminine in Jeremiah 33:15 when both are obviously referring to the same righteous branch (the Messiah) that would be raised up unto David?
     
    #15 TrueBeliever37, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,275
    Ratings:
    +5,249
    Religion:
    Jewish
    I would have to check with some grammar sources but it is possible that your presumption is wrong. In one place, the phrase is "tzemach tzedaka" (a branch of righteousness) but in the other, it is "tzemach tzaddik" (not tzemach tzedek) a proper branch. Tzedek and tzedakkah are the masculine and feminine versions. But the words used here are tzaddik and tzedakkah. These two words, though related are not simply gendered versions of the same thing. Check out the entry in Even Shoshan (in the 3 volume, pages 1817 to 1822 of Vol 3).

    One of the commentaries has this allude to two different "states" of the messiah depending on whether we deserve his arrival or not, also hinted two by 2 different verbs (atzmich, I will cause to grow vs. hakimoti, I will raise up).
     
  17. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    So it sounds like it all kind of depends on what vowel points they decide to add to the consonants. Is that correct?

    I believe the righteous branch to be masculine and the verbs bear that out, so there should be some answer to this. Let me know if you are able to verify what you have said. Thanks
     
    #17 TrueBeliever37, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,275
    Ratings:
    +5,249
    Religion:
    Jewish
    The word tzaddik has a yod in it while tzedek would not, so the choice of the adjective as being different from a gender difference is clear.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,550
    Ratings:
    +157
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    I know sometimes a yod is used in the same word and sometimes not. For instance in the MT, in a passage in Isaiah, I saw David spelled dwd, yet in the Great Isaiah scroll online, I saw the same passage with David spelled dwyd. I think Jerusalem is also sometimes spelled with, and sometimes without the yod. But if it is not a gender difference in this case, that is good to know. I need to investigate this further.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    7,275
    Ratings:
    +5,249
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Chron 1, 29:10 also spells David with a yod (as do many other locations...I stopped counting at 96 but Chron 2 has a whole slew more). But between the consonant and the vowels, I would suggest that the case of tzaddik is not one of gender.
     
Loading...