Jews, Christians, and Muslims only: "The Five Books of Moses"?

[pearl]

And the reason you ask?

OK, I've answered my own question after rereading the question in the poll.

Thanks

 

[Kenny]

I will go with Jewish/human authorship since I do not believe that God 'dictated' the Pentateuch. Neither do I believe that Moses authored the entire Pentateuch, but it is a reflection of Mosaic teaching in its entirety.


The JEDP theory seeks to understand the authorship of the Pentateuch in light of the Documentary Hypothesis. This view believes that the Pentateuch represents the conflation of four different sources rather than the work of primarily one author, traditionally Moses. The results of Source Criticism first proposed two authors (or sources) for the Pentateuch supposedly distinguishable by the use of the terms Yahweh and Elohim. Two additional sources were later proposed as P for Priestly, and D for Deuteronomic resulting in the JEDP theory of authorship, most notably associated with German scholar Julius Wellhausen (1844-1918).

JEDP are initials representing the four hypothetical sources as follows:

• Jawist (or Yahwist, from Yahweh) - describes God as Yahweh, starting in Gen 2:4, it includes much of Genesis and parts of Exodus and Numbers. It is dated around 850 B.C.
• • Elohist (from Elohim) - primarily describes God as El or Elohim. Starting with Gen 15, it covers material similar to "J". It is dated around 750 B.C. (J and E are said to be difficult to distinguish).
• • Deuteronomy - a different source (or author) is associated with Deuteronomy alone, and is usually dated around 621 B.C.
• • Priestly - this encompasses writings scattered from Gen 1 through the notice of Moses' death at the end of Deuteronomy. It is supposedly dated around 500 B.C.
• There was a very helpful color chart by Eugene McAlee which outlined the individual sources through the Pentateuch.

Yes, I agree that this is one proposal...

The biggest counter, of course, to all of these proposals is that there is no record for this outline. Dates are so hypothetical.

When you have a record in the very books such as:

Deuteronomy 31:24
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

where it is very direct as to who wrote a book, it is hard to see it otherwise.

and again, when it says:

Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

It is hard to dispute other than some people became wise in their own eyes and negate what is before us by a witness of two.

 

[metis]

Deuteronomy 31:24
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

where it is very direct as to who wrote a book, it is hard to see it otherwise.

True-- if one believes in biblical inerrancy.

 

[pearl]

The chart I referred to places Ex 17:14 within the E tradition, as it uses Elohim as the divine name. Deut 31:24 to the Deuteronomist tradition which does not contain the JEP traditions but more like a conclusion and final editing of the Pentateuch.

"Deuteronomy made explicit in an uncompromising manner what was only implicit in the JEP fusion-the love of God behind Israel's history and law.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I'm pretty sure you are a Catholic, no?

LOL!

 

[Kenny]

True-- if one believes in biblical inerrancy.

Sign me up for one of those craaaazy "God-inspired word" people believers...

 

[metis]

Sign me up for one of those craaaazy "God-inspired word" people believers...

I thought you were the CEO?

 

[Clear]

It has long been known that Moses could not have written all of the text in the pentateuch.

For example, deuteronomy 34 describes the Death of Moses and where Moses was buried.

Moses could not have written of his own death nor the time period after his own death.

All books in the Old and New Testament are part of the pseudoepigraphic literature since no one can tell who wrote any of the OT or NT books. The authorship of such books are ascribed by tradition.

Clear
φυακφυω

 

[Kenny]

It has long been known that Moses could not have written all of the text in the pentateuch.

For example, deuteronomy 34 describes the Death of Moses and where Moses was buried. Moses could not have written of his own death nor the time period after his own death. All books in the Old and New Testament are part of the epipseudographic literature since no one can tell who wrote any of the OT or NT books. The authorship of such books are simply ascribed their authorship by tradition.

Clear
φυακφυω

Ok... someone put the epitaph on it.

 

[Jake1001]

Who wrote the Bible, @jay ?

 

[Kenny]

It has long been known that Moses could not have written all of the text in the pentateuch.

For example, deuteronomy 34 describes the Death of Moses and where Moses was buried.

Moses could not have written of his own death nor the time period after his own death.

All books in the Old and New Testament are part of the pseudoepigraphic literature since no one can tell who wrote any of the OT or NT books. The authorship of such books are ascribed by tradition.

Clear
φυακφυω

That really doesn't mean that Moses didn't write it. All that means is that someone finished his book. But authorship is really quite established in most of the books.

 

[Clear]

That really doesn't mean that Moses didn't write it. All that means is that someone finished his book. But authorship is really quite established in most of the books.

Hi @KenS

Happy birthday KenS. I hope your birthday was wonderful.

If you somehow know who wrote the Books of the old and New Testament and can demonstrate who wrote these books, you will be the first in the world to have demonstrated authorship. The rest of academia and historians cannot prove who wrote these books. So far, authorship has been attributed by tradition. Are you able to share how you were able to determine who wrote the books of the Old and New Testament?

Clear

 

[Kenny]

Hi @KenS

Happy birthday KenS. I hope your birthday was wonderful.

If you somehow know who wrote the Books of the old and New Testament and can demonstrate who wrote these books, you will be the first in the world to have demonstrated authorship. The rest of academia and historians cannot prove who wrote these books. So far, authorship has been attributed by tradition. Are you able to share how you were able to determine who wrote the books of the Old and New Testament?

Clear

Thanks Clear. Birthday was wonderful. My wife pampered me--my son took me for racquet-ball and breakfast. Pop -2 Son -1 - WOOHOO!

It is easy to find some along these lines.

Philemon 1:19
I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit Ido not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Add those statements to the early fathers who read and agreed.

Words like these:
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Now, granted he may have said "Hey Wilfred, please write this down as I speak" - but it would be like a secretary writing it down at the behest of Moses--so it would still be attributed to Moses.

Isaiah 8:1
Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.

Jeremiah 30:2
Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

We could start there.

 

[Harel13]

Who wrote the Bible, @jay ?

Here, I'll help you:
@Jayhawker Soule

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Here, I'll help you:
@Jayhawker Soule

Thanks.

To @Jake1001 : I'm honestly not sure, other than being reasonably certain that it was neither God nor Moses. See Documentary Hypothesis.

 

[Clear]

Thanks Clear. Birthday was wonderful. My wife pampered me--my son took me for racquet-ball and breakfast. Pop -2 Son -1 - WOOHOO!

It is easy to find some along these lines.

Philemon 1:19
I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit Ido not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Add those statements to the early fathers who read and agreed.

Words like these:
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Now, granted he may have said "Hey Wilfred, please write this down as I speak" - but it would be like a secretary writing it down at the behest of Moses--so it would still be attributed to Moses.

Isaiah 8:1
Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.

Jeremiah 30:2
Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

We could start there.

One problem with such assumptions is that pseudoepigraphic literature was common anciently. That is, literature was attributed to great great prophets and that was not written by the prophets whose name the literature carries. Similar stock phrases such as "I Enoch", or "I abraham" appear in that literature as well.

Thus statements like those you have pointed out, do not indicate who the author was, rather they tell us who the author wanted the text attributed TO. For each of your phrases, there are other phrases that indicate the epigraphs are false attributions.. For example in Numbers 12:3, the author says : "3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth." Such statements, bragging about how humble one is does appear to be something a humble Moses would have said about himself. Rather it is more consistent of a writer who is honoring Moses' humility.

The common phenomenon of pseudoepigraphic literature such as Old Testament Daniel, was not that the real authors meant to spread error, but to increase credibility of fheir texts in spreading their religious messages.

Because such statements that you pointed out are so common and such histories are often written in the first hand view point, historians cannot tell us who the actual authors of these books were. Instead, authorships are attributed by deep and longstanding tradition.

In any case, and whoever wrote them, they are historically valuable for their witness as to the beliefs and traditions of early religionists.

Clear
ειδρνεω