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Featured Jews (and Noahides): Would Jesus be "sitting in the mizrach"?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Harel13, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I'm not sure it's worth wasting our time talking about him really, but here we are :p
     
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Oops! :(
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I could make a mod post here.


    Instead, I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt and just assume they forgot, somehow, to read the title.


    Any other assessment would be too pessimistic for me right now.
     
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  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Are you implying that every other discussion on this forum is meaningful?
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Touche!
     
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  6. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    So do you think a modern-day Jesus would've been an obscure Jewish cult leader and not close to anything mainstream?
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    There is a saying (I believe by Frederick Engels): "Being determines consciousness." If there was a Jesus, he would have been a product of his times.The same could be said of a modern-day Jesus. I think it pretty obvious that the two "times" are radically different.

    If forced to make a wild guess i could picture him as a charismatic and passionate Rabbi in the Modern Orthodoxy part of the spectrum.
     
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  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Moderator Post: This thread is in the same faith debates. Only those who identify as exclusively an adherent of Judaism or Noahide can participate.
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Yes. Excellent points, and that is where my heart is on this issue. However...

    There is opinion from a Jewish source ( I think it's Midrash Tehillim, I can look it up if desired ) that postulates that King David reduced the commandments to 11, and that Micah reduced them down to 3. I remember it because my heart sank a tiny bit after reading it.

    Which leads me to a question for @Rival, Do you think Sermon on the Mount is embellishment? Just curious about your opinion...

    @Harel, I would expect that the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount would be accepted at a Reconstructionist Shul. Not sure if that counts as "mizrach" or not though.
     
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  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I agree with you Harel... but I would go one step further...

    Is raising the dead Kosher at all? I thought that G-d did that after the in-gathering **and** after the Temple is rebuilt. But I could be wrong. I never researched it myself. ( although now I kind of want to :D )

    I would expect that if Jesus is said to have raised the dead, it is an attempt by the authors of the NT to embellish and retro-fit Moshiach status on to Jesus.
     
  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Eliyahu and Elisha did it...
    Makes sense.
     
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  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't know much about Reconstructionists, but the idea was more directed at him supposedly being a popular figure in Orthodox movements.
     
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  13. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I think it was likely based off some actual sermon, but considering these were written decades after the fact? To all intents and purposes made up.
     
    #33 Rival, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
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  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    What you're thinking of is a passage in the Talmud.

    Rabbi Simlai taught: There were 613 mitzvot stated to Moses in the Torah...
    King David came and established the 613 mitzvot upon eleven mitzvot, as it is written: ...
    Isaiah came and established the 613 mitzvot upon six, as it is written: ...
    Micah came and established the 613 mitzvot upon three, as it is written:
    Isaiah then established the 613 mitzvot upon two, as it is stated:
    Amos came and established the 613 mitzvot upon one, as it is stated: “So says the Lord to the house of Israel: Seek Me and live” (Amos 5:4).
    Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak objects to this: There is no proof that the verse in Amos is establishing all the mitzvot upon one; say that Amos is saying: Seek Me throughout the entire Torah, as the verse does not specify the manner in which one should seek the Lord. Rather, say: Habakkuk came and established the 613 mitzvot upon one, as it is stated: “But the righteous person shall live by his faith” (Habakkuk 2:4).

    Your heart can remain elated. Although there are a number of approaches to this passage, there's no commentary that entertains the possibility that this passage is saying that the commandments were reduced, G-d forbid.
     
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  15. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm of the opinion that the Jesus of the NT is fictional stories based on traditional stories passed by some proto-Christian sect of a real person. One particular argument I found compelling by Rabbi Tovia Singer is where the authors of the NT have to place Jesus as coming from both Nazareth and Bethlehem - Nazareth because that's what the traditional stories said, Bethlehem, because that's what they interpreted as where the Messiah would come from.
    However, I believe this person lived about 100 years earlier than described in the NT, conforming with the Talmud's portrayal of a Jesus. So no, I don't believe he'd be sitting on the east.

    It should also be noted that while the School of Hillel often took a more lenient approach, they didn't always take a more lenient approach. And they certainly didn't lenient the Laws into oblivion.
     
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  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    There are different Yeshuim in the Talmud, and, if I remember correctly, they don't all fit the same person. The most well known one was the student of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Gamla, who apparently was close to him (having escaped with him to Egypt) and was close to receiving forgiveness from his rabbi after being motzi shem ra. If you go by that story, I would think that potentially, he could've had a place amongst talmidei chachamim today.
    No, of course not.
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    You mean Rabbi Yehoshuah ben Perachiah. That was the one I was referring to as well as the one mentioned in Sanhedrin. Perhaps others. He wouldn't have been placed among the Sages of anytime, because he was executed for idolatry and leading others astray. Something Sages don't do.
     
  18. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Right, oops. :sweatsmile:
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Thanks for this, and I'd like to comment on what I believe is the "big picture", starting with the School of Hillel.

    We know that when asked what is the main purpose of Torah, Hillel answered "...Do not do that which you would not done unto yourself; all the rest is commentary; now go study". With this, it could give one the impression that Hillel narrowed it down to one Commandment, but that's not what he was saying. The question was in regards to the purpose of Torah, not whether one should follow the entire Law. The Hillel camp never stated that the 613 Laws were fully observed by following what Hillel thought was one main purpose of the Law.

    Jesus, and eventually the Church as a whole, went beyond just citing what they thought was the purpose, which is why the early Church, as recorded in Acts, gradually walked away from the letter of the Law at least. The kosher Laws were abandoned via Peter's vision, which the Hillel camp never advocated. Circumcision was banned for admission into the Church, whereas this was a requirement for conversion into Judaism for men.

    So, correctly or not, Jesus' approach was much more radical than the Hillel camp, even though the Hillel camp was more liberal than the Shammai camp with its allowing some flexibility in the application of the Law, for example.
     
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  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Oh wow, I had no idea...
     
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