Jews and Jesus

[David Davidovich]

There are all kinds of ways of "healing" people w/o Hashem. Here are a few examples.

1. Make the person beleive that you healed them when in fact you did not. I.e. they want to beleive so bad that they are healed they are tricked into thnking they were.

I see. However, I don't think that would work with bringing back a person's hand, which was originally shriveled.

[*]Fooling someone who is not really sick into thinking they actually are.

I don't think that would apply to all the people who are described being blind, or having leprosy, or having bleeding hemorrhages or discharges, or crippled people, or paralyzed people, or lame people, or mute people, or people with dropsy/edema, and all other sorts of serious illness.

[*]Tricking them into thinking that someone that anyone can actually do is something that only the trickster can do.

With the examples that I just gave, the Christian Bible verses don't appear to convey that people were tricked into believing that Jesus could heal all those illnesses.

[*]Claim the person is healed and when the person dies because they are not healed make another false claim about what actually happened.

I don't think there are any verses in the Christian Bible that describes anything like that.

[*]Have someone pretend to have been sick and then pretend that the tricker has healed them.

Well, with Jesus, that would have involved a huge amount of people who were pretending, based on the passages in the Christian Bible.

Consider the following. All of the people that Jesus is claimed to have healed in the NT what happaned to them afterwards? Did they become his disciples? If so, did they write any accounts about him healing them?

Those are all good questions, but from what I know, there are verses in the Christian Bible that say that not all of them became disciples. And as far as any of them writing any accounts about Jesus healing them, I would say not by any of the people who are described in the Synoptic gospels. However, the only person that I know of who wrote about getting healed by Jesus was the Apostle Paul who was healed from the blindness that Jesus caused him, and which occurred after Jesus' ascension to heaven.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. However, I don't think that would work with bringing back a person's hand, which was originally shriveled.

A few questions about that:

1. What was the name of the person who hand was supposidly shriveled?
2. What are the names of a few witnesses, who were not students of jesus, to the person having a shriveled hand before the supposed event?
3. What exactly is a "shriveled" hand and where does one find what the symptoms of such is?
4. Where is the account of the person with the shriveled hand?

I don't think that would apply to all the people who are described being blind,

A few questions about that:

1. What was the names of the blind people?
2. What are the names of a few witnesses, who were not students of jesus, to the persons have been blind before said incident?
3. What level of blindness did the people in question have?
4. Where is the account of the previously blind people?

or having leprosy, or having bleeding hemorrhages or discharges, or crippled people, or paralyzed people, or lame people, or mute people, or people with dropsy/edema, and all other sorts of serious illness.

Again, as above. Names, personal accounts, and non-Jesus student witness accounts? Also, where in the written texts of the gospels do they identify by name the authors fo said texts?

With the examples that I just gave, the Christian Bible verses don't appear to convey that people were tricked into believing that Jesus could heal all those illnesses.

A question in this area. Why did the authors of the Christian bible write in Greek? Why are the Church Fathers the source of which Gospels were acceptable? Also, are the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Phillop, Mary, and Peter valid historical accounts of early Christian history?

Well, with Jesus, that would have involved a huge amount of people who were pretending, based on the passages in the Christian Bible.

If there were really that many people. I have a few questions about them.

1. How many Jews were there to witness these events?
2. What are the names of at least 5, non-jesus disciples, who witnessed these events?
3. Are the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Phillop, Mary, and Peter valid histories of jesus and early Jewish Christian history?
4. How many 1st to 2nd century accounts survived in Hebrew and Aramaic about the events you mention?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Those are all good questions, but from what I know, there are verses in the Christian Bible that say that not all of them became disciples.

The NT claims, in acts that he had thousands of Jewish diciples/followers in the 1st to 2nd cent.

Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized. There were added that day about three thousand souls.​

Later in Acts 4:4, the author claims there were five thousand Jewish followers of jesus.

So, a generation or two later ALL of the Jewish ones were gone and cannot be identified at all. Even today there are no christians who claim descent from any of those original "claimed" Jewish followers of Jesus. That is what I mean that it doesn't sense historically.

And as far as any of them writing any accounts about Jesus healing them, I would say not by any of the people who are described in the Synoptic gospels. However, the only person that I know of who wrote about getting healed by Jesus was the Apostle Paul who was healed from the blindness that Jesus caused him, and which occurred after Jesus' ascension to heaven.

That is not a good record. Isn't Paul's claim of being healed made by the author Acts who was not Paul. Further, the author of Acts never claimed to have been there to see that Paul was at one point clinically blind and then due to jesus healed.

 

[David Davidovich]

Not highly scientific. Very simple process. See this description which has simple criteria to test a claim.

This one is also very simple methods that certain psychics were debunked. Interestingly enough several of them do exactly what the Rambam explained about how they trick people. See, for example, 4:23.

Well, I did want to point about the magic and the supernatural doesn't only pertain to clairvoyancy or psychic powers... But it also involves telekinesis and transmutation and probably some other things that I can't think of right now.

 

[David Davidovich]

Can you name a few people who in the 1st century wrote a testamony of him reading their hearts?

Well, not for their own hearts, but according to the list of verses in the links below that I looked up, I think that it is believed among Christians, that the following synoptic Bible books were written by Jesus' eyewitness disciples that bear those books' names, even though it's been questioned/disputed as to whether or not they actually wrote those books:

Mark 2:8 At once Jesus knew in His spirit that they were thinking this way within themselves. "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?" He asked. (biblehub.com)

Matthew 9:4 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said, "Why do you harbor evil in your hearts? (biblehub.com)

Matthew 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. (biblehub.com)

Luke 5:22 Knowing what they were thinking, Jesus replied, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? (biblehub.com)

Luke 6:8 But Jesus knew their thoughts and said to the man with the withered hand, "Get up and stand among us." So he got up and stood there. (biblehub.com)

Luke 11:17 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and a house divided against a house will fall. (biblehub.com)

John 2:24 But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew them all. (biblehub.com)

However, I did want to also note that these books are thought to have been written 30 plus years after Jesus' death.

Also, what were his thoughts about his Jewish followers who died out 2 generations after their start?

You will have to tell me a little bit more about his Jewish followers who died out 2 generations after their start because I am not very knowledgeable about that.

What that something that was a part of his plan and if so why?

Oh, wow... That's a very potent question. Because what most Christians probably don't know (or if they do know, they have found a way to explain it away or they just ignore it), and what their pastors and preachers will never tell them, is that according to actually NT verses (and I really don't feel like looking them up right now), Jesus said words that conveyed the idea that the Kingdom of God and the end of the age was at hand. There are even Pauline verses where he admonishes Christians not to get married because the end of the age was so near. However, when the end didn't come as he had expected, he had to change his writings into a different direction concerning the end of the world.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@David Davidovich

Where might we find the writings of the Desposyni? According to Hegesippus, this venerated family "ruled the churches in Palestine until the time of the emperor Trajan"? [source]

Surely some seven decades tending to thousands of followers must have produced an impressive record.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I did want to point about the magic and the supernatural doesn't only pertain to clairvoyancy or psychic powers... But it also involves telekinesis and transmutation and probably some other things that I can't think of right now.

That brings up some questions:

1. Can you provide a detailed definition of what you mean by the word "supernatural?"
2. If someone claims to do something that is supernatural does that mean that only can do it?
3. If someone claims to do something supernatural but it doesn't work when tested is that supernatural?
4. If someone claims to do an action in a supernatural way but anyone can learn how to do the exact thing with the exact same results, in completely natural way, is the action supernatural?
5. What evedience is there that telekinesis and transmutation are "supernatural?"
6. Can you point to some people who are able to do telekinesis and transmutation in a repeatable way?
7. What evedience is there that telekinesis and transmutation are "supernatural?"

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, not for their own hearts

What exactly does that mean, in thier own hearts? Also, he touched so many hearts and none of them fealt it was worth writing down or even following him? It must not have been that heartfelt if they were not convinced to do something it or convince their children and grandchildren to do something with.

This also seems to prove that whoever the historical jesus was he did nothing that was "supernatural." Because nonthing he did convinced that vast majority of the Jewish people people he "claimed" to have helped/healed/taught to a) write something, b) follow his lead, and c) teach their children and grandchildren to follow him.

but according to the list of verses in the links below that I looked up, I think that it is believed among Christians, that the following synoptic Bible books were written by Jesus' eyewitness disciples.

Can you identify some 1st to 2nd century Jewish Christians who attested to the authorship of the synoptic gospels?

From what I understand the Church Fathers are the earliest source of the authorship of the NT gospels. They also provide direct eye witness information about who the authors were, one of them claims that there are four like the four winds of the earth. Also, do you consider the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary, and Phillip to be valid like Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John? Also, why are all of the surviving gospels in Greek?

that bear those books' names, even though it's been questioned/disputed as to whether or not they actually wrote those books:

However, I did want to also note that these books are thought to have been written 30 plus years after Jesus' death.

That is strange. Why did they wait to late? Also, if he had 12 diciples why are there so few accounts from his students and their descendents?

You will have to tell me a little bit more about his Jewish followers who died out 2 generations after their start because I am not very knowledgeable about that.

Let's do this in reverse. Can you identify, by name, at least 10 "Jewish" followers of Jesus in the 3rd century CE? 4th century CE? and 5th Century CE? Please note I stated "Jewish" followers.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Oh, wow... That's a very potent question. Because what most Christians probably don't know (or if they do know, they have found a way to explain it away or they just ignore it), and what their pastors and preachers will never tell them, is that according to actually NT verses (and I really don't feel like looking them up right now), Jesus said words that conveyed the idea that the Kingdom of God and the end of the age was at hand.

Which is really similar to doom's day cults. For example,

1. Leave your family and follow me.
2. Let the dead bury the dead.
3. The end times are near.
4. Only those who do ABCD, which I say will survive.
5. Those who don't beleive me, when I provide no convincing arguements or evidence, are doomed.
6. I alone am the way.
7. You will in paradise with me

There are even Pauline verses where he admonishes Christians not to get married because the end of the age was so near. However, when the end didn't come as he had expected, he had to change his writings into a different direction concerning the end of the world.

Yep. And there were some Christians who did/and still do some extreme things in their lives due to Paul's advice. There are were even a sect of christians known as ebionites who claimed Paul was a heretic to the christian religion.

Further, if early Jewish Christians followed Paul's advice it makes sense that they disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations. That is all it would take people living the lifestyle he prescribed to start, get traction, and then start to fade away.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? Also, I wanted to note that I am not asking this question to Jewish Christians, but only to Jews.

Three personal opinions:

1. "Who do Jews believe" is a mildly insulting way to introduce a question, as if Jews were some monolithic demographic. One might just as well ask: "What do Jews think of the Cubs-White Sox rivalry?".
2. An interesting and respected contributor to the historical Jesus discussion is Géza Vermes - a (lapsed) Hungarian Jew with exceptional credentials.
3. I would wager that most informed Jews will evince a mild bias in favor of the Cubs. Nevertheless, many of us respect tradition and, deep down, root for the "Brooklyn" Dodgers despite the fact that they now find themselves in the Los Angeles diaspora. The Sandy Koufax factor runs deep.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Three personal opinions:

1. "Who do Jews believe" is a mildly insulting way to introduce a question, as if Jews were some monolithic demographic. One might just as well ask: "What do Jews think of the Cubs-White Sox rivalry?".

I think the reason for the question being asked that way was because there has a history on RF of a question being directed at Jews only to have people who are not Jewish trying to answer as if they know better than Jews what Jews hold by.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In regards to what Jayhawker Soule wrote about Geza Vermes, see the following.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think the reason for the question being asked that way was because there has a history on RF of a question being directed at Jews only to have people who are not Jewish trying to answer as if they know better than Jews what Jews hold by.

That is certainly possible. I am simple responding to what the sentence actually means. If you are correct, I would note the difference between:

• "Who do Jews believe Jesus was ...?", and
  
• "As a Jew, who do you believe Jesus was ...?"

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That is certainly possible. I am simple responding to what the sentence actually means. If you are correct, I would note the difference between:

• "Who do Jews believe Jesus was ...?", and
  
• "As a Jew, who do you believe Jesus was ...?"

I have met a number of people who aren't Jewish, Christian and former Christian, who have harmlessly worded the question as the first one. From my experience I have seen the following.

In some cases, for those who Christian, the question is more like - "How is possible that Jews don't beleive in Jesus......don't they see that the whole thing is a slam dunk? There must be something that they have been blinded to adn don't know."

In some cases, for those who are Christians who are questioning Christianity, their question is - "Do the Jews know something that I don't know? Why don't they beleive in jesus? Maybe I need to find out what they know. Maybe I am mistaken."

In some cases, those who were former Christians and left, may ask because they are wanting to confirm what the suspected before they left but didn't have enough information to make a full conclusion and "what the Jews think" no matter where that leads confirms that what they were taught as a beleiving Christian was not true.

Again, most people use generalities like that when the don't know and most Jewish ideas non-jesus Jews, no matter what they are, can be summed up as, "That guy was definately not a messiah and later Christians made up some stuff about him."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? Also, I wanted to note that I am not asking this question to Jewish Christians, but only to Jews.

Different Jews have different opinions about Jesus. I think he was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the messiah and failed.

As to the stories of his miracles, they are just stories. The various authors of the gospels simply wrote down every legend they had heard, so that history became combined with myth.

 

[pearl]

Different Jews have different opinions about Jesus. I think he was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the messiah and failed.

They do indeed. An interesting quote in Hans Kung's 'On Being a Christian' from Ben-Charin Schalom :

"Even if Jesus of Nazareth is not all that many of you hold him to be, he is nonetheless, for me too, for me as a Jew, a central figure whom I cannot exclude from my life- and in particular from my Jewish life. Martin Buber's phrase, that from boyhood he thought of Jesus as an older brother, had become famous. I should like to adopt the phrase, for myself, but add this to it: that the further I go along the road of life the nearer I have come to the figure of Jesus. At every turning of the road he has been standing, repeatedly, putting the question he asked at Caesarea Philippi: 'Who am I?' And repeatedly I have had to give him an answer. And I am convinced that he will continue to go with me, as long as I go along my road, and that he will constantly come to meet me as he once came to meet Peter on the Via Appia, so legend tells us, and as he once came to meet Paul as the Acts of the Apostles relate, on the Damascus Road. Again and again I meet him, and again and again we converse together on the basis of our common Jewish origins and of Jewish hopes for the coming kingdom. And since I left Christian Europe and went to live in Jewish Israel, he has come much closer to me; for I am now living in his land and among his people, and his sayings and parables are as close and as alive for me, as though it was all happening here and now.

When in the passah meal I lift the cup and break the unleavened bread, I am doing what he did, and I know that I am much closer to him than many Christians who celebrate the Eucharist in complete separation from its Jewish origins.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They do indeed. An interesting quote in Hans Kung's 'On Being a Christian' from Ben-Charin Schalom :

"Even if Jesus of Nazareth is not all that many of you hold him to be, he is nonetheless, for me too, for me as a Jew, a central figure whom I cannot exclude from my life- and in particular from my Jewish life. Martin Buber's phrase, that from boyhood he thought of Jesus as an older brother, had become famous. I should like to adopt the phrase, for myself, but add this to it: that the further I go along the road of life the nearer I have come to the figure of Jesus. At every turning of the road he has been standing, repeatedly, putting the question he asked at Caesarea Philippi: 'Who am I?' And repeatedly I have had to give him an answer. And I am convinced that he will continue to go with me, as long as I go along my road, and that he will constantly come to meet me as he once came to meet Peter on the Via Appia, so legend tells us, and as he once came to meet Paul as the Acts of the Apostles relate, on the Damascus Road. Again and again I meet him, and again and again we converse together on the basis of our common Jewish origins and of Jewish hopes for the coming kingdom. And since I left Christian Europe and went to live in Jewish Israel, he has come much closer to me; for I am now living in his land and among his people, and his sayings and parables are as close and as alive for me, as though it was all happening here and now.

When in the passah meal I lift the cup and break the unleavened bread, I am doing what he did, and I know that I am much closer to him than many Christians who celebrate the Eucharist in complete separation from its Jewish origins.

Funny, when I lift the Pesach cup, I don't think of Jesus at all. He's pretty irrelevant to me.

 

[pearl]

Funny, when I lift the Pesach cup, I don't think of Jesus at all. He's pretty irrelevant to me.

As probably to most Jews, maybe except for a few learned scholars who question, because why? Jews do not 'need' anything from Christian Scriptures. But the reverse is not the case, as without Israel there is no church. Without Exodus there is no clear understanding of Christian Scriptures.