Jews and Jesus

[Ehav4Ever]

That's interesting, however, why do you think that the NT authors may have done this?

Because their guy didn't accomplish what they were hoping and they had to spin the whole thing. I.e. in order to keep their people going they had to find ways where everything they claimed he did was predestined. They also may not have had a lot of material to use about him so they went to a place where their people would be able to make associations. I.e. they filled in the gaps with what was available because they needed to work quick to keep their thing going.

 

[Harel13]

Okay, Harel13, what did you mean when you said: These figures are presented as Jewish sorcerers who led other Jews astray?

In the future, if you want someone to know that you're talking to them, either quote one of their posts or tag them by putting a @ before their username. For example, @Harel13.
What I meant is that these figures are presented as Jews who committed acts of sorcery. The Talmud doesn't go into much detail of what that sorcery entailed, but it is obvious that the act was bad (even if good things came out of it). It is hinted that it might have included healing sick people by means that are illegal according to Jewish law, when a student of one of these Jesuses, Jacob of K'far Sechanya, offered to heal one of the sages by means he learned from his master. This offer was turned by the sage's uncle.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Even though in one of the other threads, you stated that the supernatural has been, um, scientifically disproven, based on some, um, highly scientific videos.

Not highly scientific. Very simple process. See this description which has simple criteria to test a claim.

This one is also very simple methods that certain psychics were debunked. Interestingly enough several of them do exactly what the Rambam explained about how they trick people. See, for example, 4:23.

 

[Gezellig]

When John the Baptist began his ministry, the Jews were waiting for the Anointed One. They asked John if he was the Anointed One. This is recorded in Luke 3:15-17.
His disciples, like the rest of the Jews, hoped that Jesus would free them from the power of Rome. Later they realized that he didn't come for that.
I think that the main purpose with which Jesus came to earth is recorded here: "After all, God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him would not perish, but would find eternal life" (John 3:16).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

When John the Baptist began his ministry, the Jews were waiting for the Anointed One. They asked John if he was the Anointed One. This is recorded in Luke 3:15-17.
His disciples, like the rest of the Jews, hoped that Jesus would free them from the power of Rome. Later they realized that he didn't come for that.
I think that the main purpose with which Jesus came to earth is recorded here: "After all, God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him would not perish, but would find eternal life" (John 3:16).

Greetings. What you have described is the post 2nd to 3rd century CE NT version of events. Jews from the 1st century CE to present have a different view of the events.

 

[Gezellig]

Greetings. What you have described is the post 2nd to 3rd century CE NT version of events. Jews from the 1st century CE to present have a different view of the events.

I consider the Gospels and the Bible to be the main primary source. And what the Jews think ... - it's their own business.
People's opinions change so often.

 

[Harel13]

I consider the Gospels and the Bible to be the main primary source. And what the Jews think ... - it's their own business.
People's opinions change so often.

The OP explicitly stated that he was asking Jews and not anyone else.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I consider the Gospels and the Bible to be the main primary source. And what the Jews think ... - it's their own business.
People's opinions change so often.

If you look at the OP it was directed to we Jews think. So, this entire thread is about Jewish business.

In terms of opinions. The Torath Mosheh Jewish "opinion" has been pretty well consistent on this topic for the last 2,000 years.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The OP explicitly stated that he was asking Jews and not anyone else.

Perhaps @Gezellig missed the part where it asks ...

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? ...

... despite the fact that it's the first two sentence in a three sentence post.

 

[David Davidovich]

In the future, if you want someone to know that you're talking to them, either quote one of their posts or tag them by putting a @ before their username. For example, @Harel13.
What I meant is that these figures are presented as Jews who committed acts of sorcery. The Talmud doesn't go into much detail of what that sorcery entailed, but it is obvious that the act was bad (even if good things came out of it). It is hinted that it might have included healing sick people by means that are illegal according to Jewish law, when a student of one of these Jesuses, Jacob of K'far Sechanya, offered to heal one of the sages by means he learned from his master. This offer was turned by the sage's uncle.

But how would Jesus have been able to heal people without Hashem? Also, I had thought that @Ehav4Ever had mentioned in another thread that these types of powers really don't exist.

 

[David Davidovich]

Because their guy didn't accomplish what they were hoping and they had to spin the whole thing. I.e. in order to keep their people going they had to find ways where everything they claimed he did was predestined. They also may not have had a lot of material to use about him so they went to a place where their people would be able to make associations. I.e. they filled in the gaps with what was available because they needed to work quick to keep their thing going.

Well, apparently, Jesus had to have been very special, even if he wasn't the Jewish messiah because he seemed to have really struck a nerve with a lot of the first century Jews. Also, he seemed to be very intelligent and very adroit and had a lot of charisma. Plus, he seemed to be one of those types of people who only come once in a lifetime and who makes their mark in history, whether it be for good or for bad, such as Gandhi, Alexander the Great, Plato, Aristotle, Moses, Martin Luther King... and even Adolf Hitler and Donald Trump.

 

[Harel13]

But how would Jesus have been able to heal people without Hashem? Also, I had thought that @Ehav4Ever had mentioned in another thread that these types of powers really don't exist.

I can't tell you what @Ehav4Ever said or did not say. You'll have to take it up with him. Some opine that these powers are all illusions, but even illusions when presented in a manner attempting to convince the viewer that they are actually magical, are problematic per Jewish law. So even illusionary-based healing would have been problematic.

I myself, on the other hand, do believe in the existence of such powers. Obviously in the end everything comes from Hashem, but there are proper ways to do things and improper ones. Jewish sources tell us that what Jesus did was based on usage of improper techniques, which, as previously mentioned, are illegal per Jewish law.

 

[David Davidovich]

Not highly scientific. Very simple process. See this description which has simple criteria to test a claim.

This one is also very simple methods that certain psychics were debunked. Interestingly enough several of them do exactly what the Rambam explained about how they trick people. See, for example, 4:23.

Well, apparently, Jesus was supposed to have had "something." Because it has been said that he was supposed to have been able to read people's hearts. Unless, perhaps, all that was made up.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But how would Jesus have been able to heal people without Hashem?

There are all kinds of ways of "healing" people w/o Hashem. Here are a few examples.

1. Make the person beleive that you healed them when in fact you did not. I.e. they want to beleive so bad that they are healed they are tricked into thnking they were.
2. Fooling someone who is not really sick into thinking they actually are.
3. Tricking them into thinking that someone that anyone can actually do is something that only the trickster can do.
4. Claim the person is healed and when the person dies because they are not healed make another false claim about what actually happened.
5. Have someone pretend to have been sick and then pretend that the tricker has healed them.

Also, I had thought that @Ehav4Ever had mentioned in another thread that these types of powers really don't exist.

Consider the following. All of the people that Jesus is claimed to have healed in the NT what happaned to them afterwards? Did they become his disciples? If so, did they write any accounts about him healing them?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, apparently, Jesus was supposed to have had "something." Because it has been said that he was supposed to have been able to read people's hearts. Unless, perhaps, all that was made up.

Can you name a few people who in the 1st century wrote a testamony of him reading their hearts? Also, what were his thoughts about his Jewish followers who died out 2 generations after their start? Was that something that was a part of his plan and if so why?

 

[David Davidovich]

When John the Baptist began his ministry, the Jews were waiting for the Anointed One. They asked John if he was the Anointed One. This is recorded in Luke 3:15-17.
His disciples, like the rest of the Jews, hoped that Jesus would free them from the power of Rome. Later they realized that he didn't come for that.
I think that the main purpose with which Jesus came to earth is recorded here: "After all, God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him would not perish, but would find eternal life" (John 3:16).

In addition to what other people have said about your post... from a Jewish point of view, human sacrifice doesn't even make sense in regard to how the God or Hashem in the Hebrew text (or Old Testament) views human sacrifice.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, apparently, Jesus had to have been very special, even if he wasn't the Jewish messiah because he seemed to have really struck a nerve with a lot of the first century Jews.

No. Not really. There is very little information written about the actual historical jesus. In fact, Bar Kochva did a lot more to stir up Jews. So much so that for three years Bar Kochva was able to reform some semblence of a Torah based government - even if he eventually failed. He did more than the actually Jesuses (plural did).

Also, he seemed to be very intelligent and very adroit and had a lot of charisma.

If that is the case why didn't he write his own gospel?

Plus, he seemed to be one of those types of people who only come once in a lifetime and who makes their mark in history, whether it be for good or for bad, such as Gandhi, Alexander the Great, Plato, Aristotle, Moses, Martin Luther King... and even Adolf Hitler and Donald Trump.

I tend to think his 2nd to 3rd PR guys used the fact that non-Jews they converted had no way of confirming their stories about jesus, thus they we easier to convince. So, give the prize to his PR group in the Roman empire more than anything else.

 

[David Davidovich]

I can't tell you what @Ehav4Ever said or did not say. You'll have to take it up with him. Some opine that these powers are all illusions, but even illusions when presented in a manner attempting to convince the viewer that they are actually magical, are problematic per Jewish law. So even illusionary-based healing would have been problematic.

But the thing that I wonder about is: How can actually healing someone, or even raising up someone from the dead, be an illusion?

I myself, on the other hand, do believe in the existence of such powers. Obviously in the end everything comes from Hashem, but there are proper ways to do things and improper ones. Jewish sources tell us that what Jesus did was based on usage of improper techniques, which, as previously mentioned, are illegal per Jewish law.

Thank you for that. But for clarity, are you saying that if Jesus did use some sort of power, it had to have come from Hashem, however, it was based on usage of improper techniques?

 

[idea]

I recently had a Jewish couple bear their testimony of Jesus to me, an odd thing. I was dropping off some things for a community project, thought I could just drop it and run but they pulled me in to talk and talk about the project (cried), told me about their family, about the big mega church in town. It sounds like there was a bit of a split in our local synagogue over Jesus. I've always avoided the subject of Jesus - all the Christian holidays around them, don't want to offend anyone. They seem very talkative, very particular in how every little thing should be done.

 

[Harel13]

But the thing that I wonder about is: How can actually healing someone, or even raising up someone from the dead, be an illusion?

Have you read Romeo and Juliet? The ploy there was faking death and then "coming back to life". They did it was some kind of potion or something, can't remember exactly. I can see something like that happening. And fake healing - either there's some guy playing along with you and nobody in the crowd is aware of this, or you're using some kind of temporary placebo, or I don't know.

Thank you for that. But for clarity, are you saying that if Jesus did use some sort of power, it had to have come from Hashem, however, it was based on usage of improper techniques?

For simplicity's sake, yes, that is the simplest way to put it. Since we don't really know any details on how Jesus did what he did, it would be difficult to hypothesize on his possibly turning to spiritual mediators such as angels or shedim (what you might call demons, who are also spiritual entities in a certain sense). But in the end, "Hashem alone is God, there is none else" (Deut. 4:35). Even mediators are just servants of His.