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Featured Jewish views on Lilith & appropriation

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Kapalika, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    I was told recently that gentile witches shouldn't practice with Lilith as her origins are squarely within Judaism.

    This was an article linked

    https://www.jewitches.com/post/the-origins-of-lilith-jewish-or-not

    Can Jewish folks who know about this please weigh in?

    EDIT:

    So since i didn't originally put it in my OP since it was part of something ongoing, I was told [by white non-Jewish people] that only "Jewish witches" were allowed to work with Lilith when it came to light I worship Lilith. The crux of the idea seems to be that she originates exclusively in Judaism but I always thought from my study that that wasn't the case. The idea that worshiping her is appropriation is something I don't ever recall hearing in 10+ years of practice and occasional convos with Jewish people about her either.

    As a person who doesn't want to participate in any kind of harmful thing like non-consensual appropriation I'd really honestly like to know Jewish opinions on the matter and the article above was the only reasonably credible looking source they gave (the other was a dubious looking "Jewish Witch" tumblr blog).
     
    #1 Kapalika, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  2. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    That makes more sense than what I was told. Are beliefs in Jewish figures in general considered to be exclusively for Jewish people only? Such as Abraham? ect? Or worship of God?
     
  3. Aštra’el

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    I say, embrace what you Will and let the gods evolve through you.

    Among the Seven gods I worship, there is one I call Lilith. Some might consider my views on this demon goddess a syncretization of Ereškigal from Mesopotamian myths, with the Lilith of Jewish folklore and various LHP views, as well as what I have interpreted throughout my own experience.

    There might even be dispute as to whether or not we are even worshipping the same thing when we say “Lilith”, as Lilith is sometimes just a general term for any female demon, and there are those who do not associate the Lilith they worship with the same aspects of human Nature as I do.

    Back to you. You do not require anyone’s permission to worship what you worship. What you require, might be encouragement, so here it is. Continue as you are and let none dissuade you from being who you Will to be and worshipping in the way that is most aligned with your True Will.

    I am not Jewish. However, I have tremendous respect for all the Abrahamic religions, as my experiences with their cultures- directly and indirectly- have been overwhelmingly positive. This does not mean I am against finding strength, power, wisdom and beauty where it can be found and allowing it to live on through me. That is exactly what I’ve done, regardless of who disapproves.
     
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  4. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    My beliefs are my beliefs and in all reality I'd just use some title instead of the name Lilith if it came down to it, but either way I just want to know the historical truth as best as people can figure out based on the evidence. This is the first I'm hearing the origins are exclusively Jewish too so there's some interest in the historical angle too if not just to know more.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    From my POV, Lilith predates Abraham, which means the concept is not exclusivley Jewish and there shouldn't be concerns with appropriation.
     
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  6. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Witchcraft is prohibited for Jews in Judaism. As such, the term "Jewish witches" or "Jewitches" or whatever is meaningless in the eyes of Jewish law. Simply some more Jews doing things they shouldn't be doing. There's a disagreement whether non-Jews may practice witchcraft or not. See here for a little bit of general info on the subject. If it's important to you, I recommend asking a local Orthodox rabbi.
    As for Lilith, according to Judaism, she - like other demons - was created during the 7 days of creation. The question is whether you wish to subscribe to the Jewish view of the matter or not. I'm sure that like with multiple Jewish concepts, here, too, there are those that wish to claim that Jews stole everything from other cultures/religions. You mentioned worship of Lilith - in Judaism's eyes, this is prohibited for non-Jews as well. Other than all of that, demons - like other servants of God - influence the whole world, so I don't see how doing anything related to them would be "appropriation". Sounds like some of the more wacked politically correct stuff.
     
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  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    OK, it was in the law of Moses especially intended for all those in the covenant relationship with God. Written in Leviticus 19:26 - “‘You shall not eat with the blood. You shall not believe in signs nor tell fortunes." Good question about what was intended for Abraham. The law given via Moses to the nation of Israel was for that nation. And Abraham died before the nation of Israel was formed. Just like the law of England is for those citizens. Good question. :) Yet a visitor must abide by certain laws under the law. I hope this helps.
     
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    As far as I understand, the description of Lilith is not in the Tanakh, except, according to some, some vague reference by Solomon, if I recall correctly when I was researching this. And of course, didn't Disney have her sitting on the bottom of the sea as the underwater princess? Or maybe that wasn't Lilith.
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I believe you can find more about this in the Jewish Encyclopedia, under the subject of Lilith. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not under the Law of Moses because -- they lived and died before that. The history is interesting, to say the least.
     
  10. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Lilith is mentioned once in Tanach by Isaiah, in 34:14. Nonetheless, Jewish texts and traditions are not limited to Tanach.
    I have no idea, but I don't see how that's relevant either way...
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I did some research on this a while ago, perhaps my memory is faulty about the story about her sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
    As for Solomon, I checked, and perhaps you agree(?) with the following Targum--
    "King Solomon, who commanded all spirits, had the lilin dance before him (Targ. Sheni Esth. i. 3). That's probably where I got the idea it was attributed to Solomon. The use of the term relating to lilith or lilin is apparently not conclusive. So the article in the JewishEncyclopedia is quite interesting, I remember reading it years ago. I just checked it again, I didn't find anything about her sitting on the bottom of the ocean. Not sure where I read that.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Well, I don't know where this translation comes from, but here it says: "...shedin u'f'ga'in v'chayin v'ruchin bishin..." (different sorts of demons, but not lilin). But that Shlomo had dealings with demons is a well-known idea. It's also mentioned in the Talmud.
     
  13. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Well, from what I understand, the references to lilith or lilim were not in the most positive sense. And historians have varied ideas about what happened to this "first" so-called wife of Adam. Not written by Moses, by the way.
     
  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ceremonial (Burst into Stars)
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    Not a Jew, obviously, but here's my $.2:

    Yeah, and Jews shouldn't even be practicing witchcraft in the first place and they're not going to approve of any of that, as it's a sin in Judaism. A "Jewish witch" is already sinning according to their ethnic religion, so it's bizarre that some of them feel the need to circle the wagons around that. Anyway, this is pretty stupid. It's just ultra-PC hair-splitting. Satan is a Jewish figure in the first place, so you might as well stop calling yourself a Satanist if this bothers you so. I wouldn't even spare a thought about it.
     
    #14 Saint Frankenstein, Feb 28, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of things here -- the first is the biblical commandment against divining and speaking to the dead. This is part of kishuf or "witchcraft" though that is a fairly technical term not related to the modern notion of Wicca or even of "double double boil and trouble".

    The question of lilit is discussed in this article.
     
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  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    They are welcome to their opinions. Most such historians have no authority in terms of Jewish tradition.
     
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  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I'll check it out as to whether Jewish historians agree. Thanks, though, for your opinion.
     
  18. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Most Jewish historians also lack authority in terms of Jewish tradition.
     
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  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Thanks for reminding me so then the question remains as to whether or if lilith was is a real character as to Adam's first wife.
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I see. Once again, interesting, to say the least. How do you feel about the following: "Lilith.. is first mentioned in Biblical Hebrew in Isaiah 34:14, and later in Late Antiquity in Mandaean Gnosticism mythology and Jewish mythology sources from 500 CE onwards." Would you agree with that?
     
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