Jewish Perspective on Jesus Christ?

[Autodidact]

Is he currently being slaughtered?

No. Did you have a point?

Now that the secular values of the Enlightenment have reigned in the worst excesses of theocratic Christianity, they are no longer permitted to get away with slaughtering innocent Jews by the thousands. How does that help your argument?

 

[Autodidact]

To be fair I don't think that it is the general Christian mindset that those who are "unsaved" do not matter. Indeed the parable of the lost sheep would tend to suggest otherwise.

They matter so much, in fact, that when the Church rules, it's important to kill them, or at least to round them up and confine them in ghettos and deprive them of their human rights.

 

[Wessexman]

No. Did you have a point?

Now that the secular values of the Enlightenment have reigned in the worst excesses of theocratic Christianity, they are no longer permitted to get away with slaughtering innocent Jews by the thousands. How does that help your argument?

You said he couldn't understand the spirituality of Christianity when he is being slaughtered. He isn't being slaughtered, so you have no argument. Your just making the usual sort of childish comments that atheists have taken to making under such that Dean of idiocy, Richard Dawkins(though they do date back before him of course.). One of the things I like about this forum though is that when the religious are speaking to each other in the religious forums, the irreligious do not bother us. It is ashame you feel the need to insert your Dawkinesque points where they aren't really needed.

Maybe Yona is more intent on scoring points against Christians, but if he is sensible he'll see that such irreligious point scoring as you've brought to this thread Autodidact is no friend to Judaism either.

 

[Autodidact]

You said he couldn't understand the spirituality of Christianity when he is being slaughtered. He isn't being slaughtered, so you have no argument.

O.K., allow me to update the tense for you. When you're the ones who've been slaughtered for the last 1600 years, it's hard to take notice of the effectiveness of the spiritual path of the people doing the slaughtering..

Your just making the usual sort of childish comments that atheists have taken to making under such that Dean of idiocy, Richard Dawkins(though they do date back before him of course.).

Yes, it's childish to point out that an effective spiritual path is not consistent with rape, torture and murder.

One of the things I like about this forum though is that when the religious are speaking to each other in the religious forums, the irreligious do not bother us. It is ashame you feel the need to insert your Dawkinesque points where they aren't really needed.

I understand that pointing out some historical facts might make you uncomfortable. The people who have committed the atrocities rarely feel that mentioning them is needed, but the victims often see it differently.

Maybe Yona is more intent on scoring points against Christians, but if he is sensible he'll see that such irreligious point scoring as you've brought to this thread Autodidact is no friend to Judaism either.

Tell it to my grandparents, Wessex, slaughtered by Christians.

[No True Christian in 3, 2, 1...]

 

[Autodidact]

I do find the chutzpah of the religion responsible for killing more human beings than any other movement in history boasting about its spiritual benefits amazing. Is it odd to think that if Christians were so spiritually evolved they might not go around murdering Jews, Indians, Muslims and other Christians? Just sayin'

 

[Yona]

I believe this is the Judaism DIR, I am a Jew and I am stating my opinion of Jesus and Christianity, if you don't like it and don't agree, that's fine, maybe that's why you're Christian, I don't know but what I do know is this is the Jew section of the forum, sorry. No, I don't think Christianity has brought "nothing but," literally speaking X and X and nothing else, you're taking my post to a logical absurdity and nitpicking words. Yes, you probably have a rosier image of Christianity than I do but no, I will not 'watch my speech' in the Jewish section of the forum on Jesus.

 

[Wessexman]

I only objected to your utter rejection of Christianity as being capable of anything positive particularly spiritually and only from a perspective of one person interested in spirituality to someone who I hoped was also interested in spirituality. I don't think it was an unfair interpretation of your words.

I'm a Traditionalist/Perennialist and therefore believe all the major orthodox faiths, as well as many other traditional faiths, are valid paths to God and are esoterically reflective of one truth. I would not have chosen a faith in a traditional sense if it wasn't for this position. I've (almost.)decided on the church of England, my nation's traditional faith, but am not utterly decided on Christianity. Judaism was, and to certain extent, still a possible choice for me. I find it as beautiful and spiritually fascinating as Christianity.

Autodidact, Christians have committed atrocities and some of them have been really devout people but that does not mean Christian spiritual is defined by these atrocities.

 

[Autodidact]

Autodidact, Christians have committed atrocities and some of them have been really devout people but that does not mean Christian spiritual is defined by these atrocities.

Don't you think that an enlightened person acts out of compassion, and a religion that has such a lousy record in its treatment of other people bears the marks of a lack of enlightenment?

It seems to me that if Christianity were an effective path to enlightenment, its history would not an unremitting catalog of horrors against others.

It's true that it has changed in the last couple of centuries, but that seems to me a result of Enlightenment values curbing its excesses. In other words, not because of Christianity itself, but because other forces have restrained Christianity.

That's a strictly empirical approach, which always come first for me. But I think if we start looking into Christian theology, we can find at least one source for the actions of Christians.

Which, actually, would be an interesting conversation. What is it about Christianity that has caused so many Christians to invade, oppress, destroy, etc. other people, including other Christians?

But I usually find it's impossible to have that conversation here, because you have to overcome so much reflexive denial and general defensiveness it wears out the discussion.

 

[Autodidact]

It's not just that Christians have committed atrocities, Wessex. Heck, atheists have committed atrocities. It's that they seem to have done it specifically as Christians, on behalf of their God and their religion. That's what I find significant. After all, people are much the same the world over. But there seems to be something about Christianity itself that often inspires bloody devotion in its followers.

Islam too, btw, not that it matters. But you can't get any further trying to figure that out around here without its believers diverting the conversation into justification and denial.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe this is the Judaism DIR, I am a Jew and I am stating my opinion of Jesus and Christianity, if you don't like it and don't agree, that's fine, maybe that's why you're Christian, I don't know but what I do know is this is the Jew section of the forum, sorry. No, I don't think Christianity has brought "nothing but," literally speaking X and X and nothing else, you're taking my post to a logical absurdity and nitpicking words. Yes, you probably have a rosier image of Christianity than I do but no, I will not 'watch my speech' in the Jewish section of the forum on Jesus.

I did put this post in the Judaism DIR for a reason. Unfortunately, some people on this forum seem to think the forum rules are not intended for them. Thanks for your input, Yona.

 

[kai]

MOD POST

Just to remind you folks this is the Judaism DIR:
​

10. Discuss Individual Religions Forums
The DIR forums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. Only posts that comply with the tenets or spirit of that DIR are permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.

 

[Wessexman]

I don't think my question was technically contrary to these rules. My question was meant to suggest that as a Jew did he not see anything spiritual or redeeming, obviously from his own Jewish perspective, in Christianity. But I hadn't actually read the rules.

 

[David_2010]

O.K., allow me to update the tense for you. When you're the ones who've been slaughtered for the last 1600 years, it's hard to take notice of the effectiveness of the spiritual path of the people doing the slaughtering..

Yes, it's childish to point out that an effective spiritual path is not consistent with rape, torture and murder. I understand that pointing out some historical facts might make you uncomfortable. The people who have committed the atrocities rarely feel that mentioning them is needed, but the victims often see it differently.

Tell it to my grandparents, Wessex, slaughtered by Christians.

[No True Christian in 3, 2, 1...]

I do find the chutzpah of the religion responsible for killing more human beings than any other movement in history boasting about its spiritual benefits amazing. Is it odd to think that if Christians were so spiritually evolved they might not go around murdering Jews, Indians, Muslims and other Christians? Just sayin'

Don't you think that an enlightened person acts out of compassion, and a religion that has such a lousy record in its treatment of other people bears the marks of a lack of enlightenment?

It seems to me that if Christianity were an effective path to enlightenment, its history would not an unremitting catalog of horrors against others.

It's true that it has changed in the last couple of centuries, but that seems to me a result of Enlightenment values curbing its excesses. In other words, not because of Christianity itself, but because other forces have restrained Christianity.

That's a strictly empirical approach, which always come first for me. But I think if we start looking into Christian theology, we can find at least one source for the actions of Christians.

Which, actually, would be an interesting conversation. What is it about Christianity that has caused so many Christians to invade, oppress, destroy, etc. other people, including other Christians?

But I usually find it's impossible to have that conversation here, because you have to overcome so much reflexive denial and general defensiveness it wears out the discussion.

I know this might be OT, and I also have Jewish ancestry (and am currently interested in Judaism, trying to find out if it's for me), but, I don't think it's actually fair to lay the blame on all Christians. I'm not sure if you've ever read 'The Lucifer Prnciple' by Harold Bloom, but, in it, he shows how evil is pretty much hardwired into us, humans have been killing each other, for whatever reason, since we first arose, if Christians hadn't killed Jews, and others, in the name of Christ, there'd be another reason, such as politics, culture, racism, etc. I can't remember who said this, but, I remember hearing someone say, if the world was entirely atheist, we'd be killing each other over who was more of an Atheist.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the actions of the Church, and what they did to Jews, and others, but, I also don't think it's right to lay the blame just at Christians (perhaps the people in the Church should have followed Christ more fully, than giving into the darkness that exists in all humans, that's a criticsm I'd agee with).

 

[Autodidact]

I know this might be OT, and I also have Jewish ancestry (and am currently interested in Judaism, trying to find out if it's for me), but, I don't think it's actually fair to lay the blame on all Christians. I'm not sure if you've ever read 'The Lucifer Prnciple' by Harold Bloom, but, in it, he shows how evil is pretty much hardwired into us, humans have been killing each other, for whatever reason, since we first arose, if Christians hadn't killed Jews, and others, in the name of Christ, there'd be another reason, such as politics, culture, racism, etc. I can't remember who said this, but, I remember hearing someone say, if the world was entirely atheist, we'd be killing each other over who was more of an Atheist.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the actions of the Church, and what they did to Jews, and others, but, I also don't think it's right to lay the blame just at Christians (perhaps the people in the Church should have followed Christ more fully, than giving into the darkness that exists in all humans, that's a criticsm I'd agee with).

Oh I completely agree, David. I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about. Maybe we should start a thread on it. We've seen it throughout human history, right up until now. You might like The Myth of Evil by Phillip Cole. It really helped me understand the process. The other perspective that helps is understanding human evolution/evolutionary psychology.

But you can't understand it by denying the basic reality. Whatever the process and causes are, Christianity is obviously a fine example of it, and we can learn about it by studying examples such as Christianity and Islam.

If you close your eyes and fool yourself that Christianity is an exception, instead of an example, it's going to screw up your analysis.

Basically, as usual, I think that empiricism really helps us understand what's going on, and empiricism starts with the facts. The fact is that Christianity, for much of its history, especially when it was in power, has been a force for violence, imperialism, torture, repression and genocide.

 

[Caladan]

I look at it this way. Jesus and his account as told in the gospels (which ever gospels suites you.. the NT, the Nag Hammadi library) is an episode in the history of the Jewish people in the 1st century living as a province of Rome.
I consider Christianity to be sardonic turn of events in the first centuries in which it gradually became something else, unconnected to the Jewish movement around Jesus the man from Galilee, who has proclaimed that he only came to the house of Israel.
further more some of the scribes of the New Testament have been wise to comment about non Jews who wish to consider themselves as the source and replace the Jewish root of this tradition:
"do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

 

[David_2010]

Oh I completely agree, David. I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about. Maybe we should start a thread on it. We've seen it throughout human history, right up until now. You might like The Myth of Evil by Phillip Cole. It really helped me understand the process. The other perspective that helps is understanding human evolution/evolutionary psychology.

But you can't understand it by denying the basic reality. Whatever the process and causes are, Christianity is obviously a fine example of it, and we can learn about it by studying examples such as Christianity and Islam.

If you close your eyes and fool yourself that Christianity is an exception, instead of an example, it's going to screw up your analysis.

Basically, as usual, I think that empiricism really helps us understand what's going on, and empiricism starts with the facts. The fact is that Christianity, for much of its history, especially when it was in power, has been a force for violence, imperialism, torture, repression and genocide.

I might check out 'The Myth of Evil' one day, and I do know that Political Christanity (as well as Political Islam) has been responsible for a lot of evil, but, IMO, that's what happens when you let politicians gain control of a spiritual tradition - they twist it for their own purposes, I try not to confuse those who twist things for, usually, material gains, and those who pursue their Path with genuine spirituality (e.g. while many of those who called themselves Christian have persecuted Jews, and many others for over a thousand years, there have also been many great Christian Mystics, and others), even Buddhism isn't squeaky clean, check out this site, it has a list of quotes by Buddhists, using Buddhism, to justify murdering innocent people, and, if I'm not mistaken, during WW2, Japanese Kamikaze pilots were very influenced by Shinto and Buddhist beliefs.

I don't deny that both the Christian Church and Islam have been used to cause violence, persecution and murder but, I don't think the entire institutions should be blamed either, like I said, in one form or another, we'll always have massive persecutions of another people(s) unfortunately, but, hopefully, we can help fight against them, and minimize the damage done.

 

[David69]

as the moshiach, I beleive that jesus was fathered by Joseph before you say that thats not possible.... if god runs through Josephs d.n.a hows it not possible? Didnt a rabbi name there mochiach Yeshua!!! and all the crossed he scribbled on the page. his son denyed the name yeshua and said that his father only refured to him as "the angel" through ME jesus will fullfil the prophecys!!!
Jesus: I send forth my Angel... Iam the ROOT and offspring of DAVID... WE areONE"!
Meaning that I am the second coming. Jesus runs through me and my children.
every religion will have a bitter pill to swallow but they will understand!

 

[TalAbrams]

I am a Jew and view this man Jesus as just that, a man. I do not discount the possibility that he existed or that he was a good Jew. Many things written about him after his death have lessened his image. He kept the Law and put God first in all things according to the NT writings. He was not a Christian, obviously, and did not advocate the things Paul did.
Christians today follow the religion of Paul, not that of the Jew named Jesus.

 

[Biblestudent_007]

Its interesting learning about different views and opinions on the Internet.

Much different speaking face to face in person.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Its interesting learning about different views and opinions on the Internet.

Much different speaking face to face in person.

In some cases.

Personally, I have no problem saying the same things in person that I say on the internet.