Jewish Identity

[Jake1001]

'Jewish': Nationality or religion? Israel's fierce, bitter debate about identity | Opinion

This article describes the shabby way Reform Jews (RJ) are treated by Conservative Jews (CJ) and Orthodox Jews (OJ) in DIRs around the world.

Agreed ?

 

[sun rise]

I was not aware of the details of this case and the consequences until I read that excellent review including the unintended consequences. But I have been aware of the ultra Orthodox stranglehood on Israel's laws for a long time.

While I am a Jew according to the halakha since my mother was Jewish and honor such figures as the Baal Shem Tov, such religious fights as the one in the story lies behind my negativity to a lot of organized religion where there are rigid rules for who is in the in group and who is not.

This extends to the US where I'm against religion determining the law for the same basic reason.

 

[Estro Felino]

You know...I met many Roman Jews in my life.
The things we have in common are countless.
The love for Roman history...we speak the same Roman dialect..
So I do think that Judaism is not a nationality...and no matter how a religion can unite people...a Roman Jew and I will always remain much more similar to one another...
Compared to the similarities that there can be between a Roman Jew or an American Jew ...or a Israeli Jew like @Tumah .
Because Romanesque culture is very strong and transcends religious affiliation.

This is just my opinion

 

[Brickjectivity]

Agreed ?

What does the Chief Rabbinate consider the long term threat of letting people into the country who aren't approved of by the Chief Rabbinate?

Doesn't a pluralistic state mean that religious Jews will once again be permanent immigrants? Why doesn't it?

The article states "That individual wanted greater freedom of conscience for all Israelis, but had no idea his advocacy would lead to Israel’s current Law of Return, and its legal definition of 'Who is a Jew.' " It sounds like the article is trying to say "I just want everybody to have freedom of conscience!" Sounds like he doesn't want a Jewish state.

What's wrong with Judaism in government? Why not have a state in which Judaism is the government? Not modern enough? Don't like the pizza? What? What's the objection?

 

[Heyo]

'Jewish': Nationality or religion? Israel's fierce, bitter debate about identity | Opinion

This article describes the shabby way Reform Jews (RJ) are treated by Conservative Jews (CJ) and Orthodox Jews (OJ) in DIRs around the world.

Agreed ?

There has always been an ambiguity between the ethnic Jew (of Semitic descend) and the religious Jew (of Mosaic faith).
But citizens of Israel have always been called Israeli.

 

[Altfish]

In my experience Judeism is not a religion or a nationality; may people who call themselves Jews are atheists.
I think it is more like a Clan (sorry there must be a better word) who have a similar ancestory and share many values.

 

[Heyo]

In my experience Judeism is not a religion or a nationality; may people who call themselves Jews are atheists.
I think it is more like a Clan (sorry there must be a better word) who have a similar ancestory and share many values.

The word you are looking for is "culture". And yes, there is such a thing, derived from ethnicity and religion but carried on even through ethnic mixing and change/loss of religiosity. I should have added the cultural Jew in my above list but I wouldn't know how to define one.

 

[metis]

'Jewish': Nationality or religion? Israel's fierce, bitter debate about identity | Opinion

This article describes the shabby way Reform Jews (RJ) are treated by Conservative Jews (CJ) and Orthodox Jews (OJ) in DIRs around the world.

Agreed ?

My experience is that this tends to be generally true of more fundamentalistic denominations/branches so, yes, I do agree, and I experienced it as well both within Judaism and Christianity.

However, with that being said, they certainly have a right to their beliefs.

 

[RabbiO]

'Jewish': Nationality or religion? Israel's fierce, bitter debate about identity | Opinion

This article describes the shabby way Reform Jews (RJ) are treated by Conservative Jews (CJ) and Orthodox Jews (OJ) in DIRs around the world.

Agreed ?

Actually that is not what the article describes at all. How did you come up with that?

 

[sun rise]

I should have added the cultural Jew in my above list but I wouldn't know how to define one.

It's not true any more to some degree but my parents were cultural Jews. That meant first identifying as Jews because of their ancestors, where they lived, the Shtetl, and what everyone else called them including those who took part in pogroms.

They wanted me to know and identify with the history of Jews especially the Ashkenazi in Europe, the Holocaust and the Israeli 1946 war especially. We were encouraged to give a dollar to plant a tree in Israel and to learn the Israeli national anthem.

Finally marriages and funerals were assumed to be times to attend Temple not for the religion but for the ritual aspect.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think it is more like a Clan (sorry there must be a better word) who have a similar ancestory and share many values.

Perhaps it's more like a confederation of clans or tribes.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

'
This article describes the shabby way Reform Jews (RJ) are treated by Conservative Jews (CJ) and Orthodox Jews (OJ) in DIRs around the world.

Where? (I found the reference to Conservative Jews particularly curious.)

 

[Jake1001]

I was not aware of the details of this case and the consequences until I read that excellent review including the unintended consequences. But I have been aware of the ultra Orthodox stranglehood on Israel's laws for a long time.

While I am a Jew according to the halakha since my mother was Jewish and honor such figures as the Baal Shem Tov, such religious fights as the one in the story lies behind my negativity to a lot of organized religion where there are rigid rules for who is in the in group and who is not.

This extends to the US where I'm against religion determining the law for the same basic reason.

Good post, Sunny, I’m in agreement.

 

[Jake1001]

You know...I met many Roman Jews in my life.
The things we have in common are countless.
The love for Roman history...we speak the same Roman dialect..
So I do think that Judaism is not a nationality...and no matter how a religion can unite people...a Roman Jew and I will always remain much more similar to one another...
Compared to the similarities that there can be between a Roman Jew or an American Jew ...or a Israeli Jew like @Tumah .
Because Romanesque culture is very strong and transcends religious affiliation.

This is just my opinion

I’m not sure I get your point, Estro, but I’ll give you a big Shalom anyway !!

 

[Jake1001]

Actually that is not what the article describes at all. How did you come up with that?

Did you read this, Big R ?

“ Israel’s Sephardic Chief Rabbi, Yitzhak Yosef, stirred controversy in the first week of 2020 by asserting that there are "many, many goyim" in Israel, many of whom, he stated, were religion-hating "communists," and also who, he implied, were deliberately brought there to act as secular ballast against the electoral strength of religious and ultra-Orthodox Israelis.

Yosef was referring to the hundreds of thousands of people who have migrated to Israel since the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe that the state rabbinate he co-heads does not consider Jewish (he was probably also referring to the many more Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are recognized as Jewish, but are defiantly secular).”

 

[Jake1001]

Where? (I found the reference to Conservative Jews particularly curious.)

Hi Jay, nice to see you, as always . In my experience many CJ’s are not tolerant of RJ’s. Its not only OJ’s. Does that explain it for you?

 

[Estro Felino]

I’m not sure I get your point, Estro, but I’ll give you a big Shalom anyway !!

Thank you. Likewise

 

[Estro Felino]

Did you read this, Big R ?

“ Israel’s Sephardic Chief Rabbi, Yitzhak Yosef, stirred controversy in the first week of 2020 by asserting that there are "many, many goyim" in Israel, many of whom, he stated, were religion-hating "communists," and also who, he implied, were deliberately brought there to act as secular ballast against the electoral strength of religious and ultra-Orthodox Israelis.

Yosef was referring to the hundreds of thousands of people who have migrated to Israel since the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe that the state rabbinate he co-heads does not consider Jewish (he was probably also referring to the many more Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are recognized as Jewish, but are defiantly secular).”

If we are discussing the Israeli Nation, then...I guess yes, the religion-nationality binomial is inseparable . I guess it is rightful to be worried about the numbers of the immigrating people who can compromise the religious and cultural values upon which the Israeli Republic founds itself.

 

[Heyo]

If we are discussing the Israeli Nation, then...I guess yes, the religion-nationality binomial is inseparable . I guess it is rightful to be worried about the numbers of the immigrating people who can compromise the religious and cultural values upon which the Israeli Republic founds itself.

I don't know much about the founding of Israel (just the facts you find in the history books). I always thought Israel was founded as a secular, democratic republic, not as a theocracy. Yes, it was thought up as a save haven and an own nation for all Jews, ethnic, religious and cultural but that was inclusive not exclusive. For me, this controversy sounds like ultra religious Jews railing against the ethnic, cultural and moderate Jews as being not Jewish enough and having no right to live in Israel, an apartheid based on religious extremism. Exactly the opposite of an inclusive country.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know much about the founding of Israel (just the facts you find in the history books). I always thought Israel was founded as a secular, democratic republic, not as a theocracy. Yes, it was thought up as a save haven and an own nation for all Jews, ethnic, religious and cultural but that was inclusive not exclusive. For me, this controversy sounds like ultra religious Jews railing against the ethnic, cultural and moderate Jews as being not Jewish enough and having no right to live in Israel, an apartheid based on religious extremism. Exactly the opposite of an inclusive country.

In fact : it is thanks to those biblical values that freedom of religion is preserved.
That the freedom of being atheists is protected.
And above all...the freedom of atheistic propaganda...
And Israel is the only country in the ME where atheist propaganda is allowed and protected under the law.