Jewish family flees Delaware school district's aggressive Christianity

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your argument, Saint George. You mention that there should be NO religion in the public school system, and yet you find no problem with public Christian prayer to open graduation ceremonies, school districts handing out free Bibles and imposing upon non-Christian students to attend Bible study groups for "social opportunities," Bible-club members given favorable circumstances by school districts.............all of this is an obvious attempt by the school district - supported by all citizens' tax dollars - to establish Christianity as it's "go-to" invocation in any public domain.



The Delaware district even ignored the 1992 Supreme Court decision that limits prayer at public school ceremonies, and since this clearly is a violation, the family had a right to file a lawsuit against the district.




The ideal is that the Jewish family can and should have free expression of their faith (the wearing of yarmulkes / kippahs / skullcaps however you want to call them), without interference and/or establishment by the state. The Christian should be able to carry a Bible in school and wear crucifix jewelry, and pray to Jesus without interference and/or establishment by the state. What the Delaware school district did is a violation against the Jewish family, and they need to be corrected.



It's such a shame that the family felt the need to move two hours away in order to feel protected.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My point is that public prayer of any kind is silly and annoying and pretentious.

To you ...

 

[Saint George]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your argument, Saint George. You mention that there should be NO religion in the public school system, and yet you find no problem with public Christian prayer to open graduation ceremonies, school districts handing out free Bibles and imposing upon non-Christian students to attend Bible study groups for "social opportunities," Bible-club members given favorable circumstances by school districts.............all of this is an obvious attempt by the school district - supported by all citizens' tax dollars - to establish Christianity as it's "go-to" invocation in any public domain.

My point is that praying to Christ in a public school is not hurting anyone. People may find it in bad taste but it doesn’t hurt anyone. Those who find it offensive have really lost all perspective. It's like finding the phrase "Merry Christmas" offensive and insisting that people use "happy holidays" instead. There are real problems out there such as homelessness, inner city drug wars, people without healthcare and the poor. These are REAL problems that are offensive to God and to humanity. Being in a public place where a Christian prayer is uttered is not offensive to anyone. It's all in your head.

Based on the article, the threats came after the law suit was filed. I only have the article to go by so that's all of the information that I have. The community felt that their values were being threatened and they retaliated. But, there is nothing in the article that I read where there were any threats to the jewish families before the law suit was filed. I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm just exchanging ideas. Here are the things that bother me with this whole situation.

First, the jews involved found nothing wrong with wearing religious symbols to the public school but they found fault with Christian prayer by members of the school. I find that to be hypocritical and dishonest.

Second, the jews involved claimed that they were offended and hurt and somehow harmed by the Christian prayers. I found that to be absolutely ridiculous and absurd. They were not forced to participate in such activities and no physical harm came of it.

Third, it was only after the law suit was filed that a few nut jobs acted inappropriate and started to make threats. A few nut jobs do not represent the community at large.

What is discrimination anyway? Discrimination is when a black person is prevented from voting. Discrimination is when women are prevented from voting. Discrimination is when blacks are prevented from using public facilities that are designated to whites. Discrimination is when people are killed and physically harmed because of their religion or because of the color of their skin. Although I do not support prayer in public places, I do not believe that it is discrimination against non-believers, not even close. And those who believe that it is discrimination are just mean spirited and cynical.

:sarcastic

 

[Bishka]

Second, the jews involved claimed that they were offended and hurt and somehow harmed by the Christian prayers. I found that to be absolutely ridiculous and absurd. They were not forced to participate in such activities and no physical harm came of it.

Harm doesn't have to be physical, it can be emotional, spiritual, and mental. Also, the article stated that the Jewish children were left alone while everybody else went to particpate in Chritian activities and on more then one occasion were they encouraged to go, even though the teachers knew they were Jewish.

What is discrimination anyway? Discrimination is when a black person is prevented from voting. Discrimination is when women are prevented from voting. Discrimination is when blacks are prevented from using public facilities that are designated to whites. Discrimination is when people are killed and physically harmed because of their religion or because of the color of their skin. Although I do not support prayer in public places, I do not believe that it is discrimination against non-believers, not even close. And those who believe that it is discrimination are just mean spirited and cynical.

:sarcastic

If you think this is all discrimintation is...

dis·crim·i·na·tion
n.

1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice:

Discrimination includes discrimination of religion, race, gender, etc. If you think that you can just focus on the race, you are highly wrong.

 

[BrandonE]

What is discrimination anyway? Discrimination is when a black person is prevented from voting. Discrimination is when women are prevented from voting. Discrimination is when blacks are prevented from using public facilities that are designated to whites. Discrimination is when people are killed and physically harmed because of their religion or because of the color of their skin. Although I do not support prayer in public places, I do not believe that it is discrimination against non-believers, not even close. And those who believe that it is discrimination are just mean spirited and cynical.

:sarcastic

Ok, you say that your only source of information was the article. Mine too. How about this part?

District teachers and staff led Bible clubs at several schools. Club members got to go to the head of the lunch line.
While Bible clubs were widely available, student book clubs were rare and often canceled by the district.
When Jane Doe complained that her non-Christian son "Jordan Doe" was left alone when his classmates when to Bible club meetings, district staff insisted that Jordan should attend the club, regardless of his religion.
The district schools attended by Jordan and his sister "Jamie Doe" distributed Bibles to students in 2003, giving them time off from class to pick up the books.

Which part of that exactly doesn't sound like discrimination?

The issue is not the public nature of the prayer, so much as the publicly funded nature of the prayer.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Saint George, I think you are misapplying the freedom to religious expression toward how the school district is behaving. There is no argument from the Jewish family IMO that Christians should be allowed to pray in public. But the behavior of the school district deluded themselves by abusing the free expression by publicly harassing this Jewish family and targeting them before the lawsuit was ever filed.



The school district, in a graduation ceremony, targeted a lone Jewish student by praying to Jesus - as a group - to guide her to a righteous path.........toward Jesus. This happened before the lawsuit, and this prayer was not IMO benign. The student was targeted and harassed before she uttered any complaint.



Moments of silence allowed by public ceremony officiates are not the problem. Student-led groups praying to Jesus and planning Christ-centered activities in their own free time is not the issue. The issue was utilizing one faith as a tool by any level of government as a means for harassment. The Jewish family did not have it easy by any means, and in fact, they were the victims of a heavy-handed discrimination attempt.




I see the school district's behavior much differently than you do, it seems. There wasn't simply a general public prayer by Christians. That alone, by itself, does not alarm me. What alarmed me was the obvious targeting toward this Jewish family to make their lives as miserable as possible.




What also concerns me is what seems to be the "they got what they deserved" attitude by filing a lawsuit when they started receiving threats. Are they supposed to be punished for protesting?




Peace,
Mystic

 

[BrandonE]

Again, it's not so much the public nature of the prayer as the publicly funded nature of the prayer that is at issue here. It was one example of a systematic abuse of power by the school board. To impune the plaintif here is nothing more than attempting to de-rail the real issue.

 

[Saint George]

Saint George, I think you are misapplying the freedom to religious expression toward how the school district is behaving. There is no argument from the Jewish family IMO that Christians should be allowed to pray in public. But the behavior of the school district deluded themselves by abusing the free expression by publicly harassing this Jewish family and targeting them before the lawsuit was ever filed.



The school district, in a graduation ceremony, targeted a lone Jewish student by praying to Jesus - as a group - to guide her to a righteous path.........toward Jesus. This happened before the lawsuit, and this prayer was not IMO benign. The student was targeted and harassed before she uttered any complaint.



Moments of silence allowed by public ceremony officiates are not the problem. Student-led groups praying to Jesus and planning Christ-centered activities in their own free time is not the issue. The issue was utilizing one faith as a tool by any level of government as a means for harassment. The Jewish family did not have it easy by any means, and in fact, they were the victims of a heavy-handed discrimination attempt.




I see the school district's behavior much differently than you do, it seems. There wasn't simply a general public prayer by Christians. That alone, by itself, does not alarm me. What alarmed me was the obvious targeting toward this Jewish family to make their lives as miserable as possible.




What also concerns me is what seems to be the "they got what they deserved" attitude by filing a lawsuit when they started receiving threats. Are they supposed to be punished for protesting?


Peace,
Mystic

I respect your differences of opinion but I just disagree. I don't see anything in the article that can be taken as offensive to non-believers. I am very confident in my Catholic faith and I would never allow members of another religion to make me feel miserable. I'm trying to place myself in the place if these kids and I just don't see what your point is.

Let's say that I'm going to a predominantly jewish public school in Brooklyn, NY. And let's say that the jewish students exclude me from whatever activities they participate in, and lets say that they have a jewish club and lets say that they do everything to me that is outlined in this article. I would just not be offended and I would most likely laugh it off. I am confident enough in my religion and in my family and in my Catholic friends that I really would not care what the jewish students think about me. If they actually invited me to participate in their activities, I would most likely decline to participate because I have no interest in their way of life or their religious practices. And I would in no way be offended by their public prayers.

I just don't see anything in this article that would offend me or my family. There are a lot of nut jobs out there and perhaps a few on this forum. But, they have always been there and they always will be there. So, if I ever receive a threat from some cook I have to consider the source. Perhaps I'm thick skinned but I just don't care what other non-Catholics do to exclude me from their religious activities.

Another thing to consider is the source of this article. It was obviously written by someone who wanted to put a negative spin on the whole situation. You must remember that the press is in the business of selling these types of stories. The more sensational the story sounds the more its going to sell. It would be interesting to hear from the other participants and the school district. I can bet you that their perceptions would be quite different.

 

[Bishka]

I respect your differences of opinion but I just disagree. I don't see anything in the article that can be taken as offensive to non-believers. I am very confident in my Catholic faith and I would never allow members of another religion to make me feel miserable. I'm trying to place myself in the place if these kids and I just don't see what your point is.

Let's say that I'm going to a predominantly jewish public school in Brooklyn, NY. And let's say that the jewish students exclude me from whatever activities they participate in, and lets say that they have a jewish club and lets say that they do everything to me that is outlined in this article. I would just not be offended and I would most likely laugh it off. I am confident enough in my religion and in my family and in my Catholic friends that I really would not care what the jewish students think about me. If they actually invited me to participate in their activities, I would most likely decline to participate because I have no interest in their way of life or their religious practices. And I would in no way be offended by their public prayers.

I just don't see anything in this article that would offend me or my family. There are a lot of nut jobs out there and perhaps a few on this forum. But, they have always been there and they always will be there. So, if I ever receive a threat from some cook I have to consider the source. Perhaps I'm thick skinned but I just don't care what other non-Catholics do to exclude me from their religious activities.

Another thing to consider is the source of this article. It was obviously written by someone who wanted to put a negative spin on the whole situation. You must remember that the press is in the business of selling these types of stories. The more sensational the story sounds the more its going to sell. It would be interesting to hear from the other participants and the school district. I can bet you that their perceptions would be quite different.

George,

Not everybody is as 'hard-skinned' as yourself, and you cannot expect them to be.

 

[Quiddity]

*MOD POST*
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM NAME CALLING, USING INFLAMMATORY LANGUAGE, ETC.
IF YOU NEED TO REVISIT THE FORUM RULES TO GET CLARIFICATION PLEASE DO SO AT THIS TIME.
LET'S GET TO TOPIC AND KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE.​

 

[Ody]

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but you should closely examine your own beliefs before you call others ignorant.
:sleep:

Wow... :areyoucra

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

They are not very good examples of a Christian, are they?

Even though I'm not saying that the incident was a good thing, or that the "Christians" behind it were doing right, this is what many Christian students in public schools face everyday, turned backwards. Instead of saying "We're going to make you listen to prayers in Jesus' name, not God's", I hear "You really shouldn't pray in school." Instead of studying Christianity and no other religions, I study every religion EXCEPT for Christianity. Instead of my teachers telling me that there is only one religion, or only one path to Heaven, I hear that all religions are right. And all of that goes against the very cores of my beliefs. It's so twisted how leaders on the schoolboards can decide on a curriculum, and decide what and what not to allow, based on their own beliefs. They need to be thinking about what's good for everybody. And if that means taking out all studies of religion, it's perfectly fine with me. I study Christianity in my home and at my church. School is a place for math, english, science, and gym class. And that's just the bottom line.

 

[Ðanisty]

I think schools would do far better spending their time teaching about history and culture than trying to tackle religion.

 

[mr.guy]

They need to be thinking about what's good for everybody.

You don't think a little backround on world religion is valueble?

 

[Quiddity]

You don't think a little backround on world religion is valueble?

I think it is. But that's what college is for..

 

[mr.guy]

I think it is. But that's what college is for..

Ahh...that way we can approach other ideologies with the full hormonal strength of our convictions, no?

 

[Quiddity]

Ahh...that way we can approach other ideologies with the full hormonal strength of our convictions, no?

That and if you don't want to take that class, the option is there not to. It would not be an option if it was in high school. At least in California it's like that. Not sure how Canada works.