Jewish culture

[metis]

Judaism is one extension of a historical nation and civilization.
Jews are an historical nation, a people. With independent kingdoms in antiquities, with kings, generals, and yes also priesthoods.

My answer could span ten pages here, but please start from here. Would you ask a Spaniard what makes him Catholic or what makes him Spanish?
Many self conscious Jews look and act according to their historical and contemporary national interests, not necessarily dependent on the faith of Judaism, but on pragmatic needs according to rising circumstances.
Judaism is an ethos for the majority's of the world's Jews. But Jewish culture like any other nation, people or kingdom in history had to face the world outside the comfort of its tradition.

Nice post, imo. Iceland seems to have done ya a lot of good! or was it the ale? :thud:

 

[Caladan]

Nice post, imo. Iceland seems to have done ya a lot of good! or was it the ale? :thud:

LOL! It must be the ale.

 

[Me Myself]

Judaism is one extension of a historical nation and civilization.
Jews are an historical nation, a people. With independent kingdoms in antiquities, with kings, generals, and yes also priesthoods.

My answer could span ten pages here, but please start from here. Would you ask a Spaniard what makes him Catholic or what makes him Spanish?
Many self conscious Jews look and act according to their historical and contemporary national interests, not necessarily dependent on the faith of Judaism, but on pragmatic needs according to rising circumstances.
Judaism is an ethos for the majority's of the world's Jews. But Jewish culture like any other nation, people or kingdom in history had to face the world outside the comfort of its tradition.

I would ask him in which ways he feels part of spanish culture if he does not live in spain nor have ever lived in spain and does not speak spanish.

Provided I was curious about it. If he said " I am culturally a spaniard" and I eas curious, I would ask him.

 

[Levite]

The problem with the above I have is simply this: being "Jewish" is simply not a religion-- being involved with "Judaism", is. Most Israelis are secular, does that mean they're not "Jewish" (I'm obviously excluding those who are of different nationalities who may live in Israel, such as the Palestinians)?

Also, even when it comes to Judaism, just how well educated in Jewish theology does one have to be in order to follow "Judaism"? Certainly we both probably agree that it's better to know more than less, but is there some sort of litmus test as far as how much one must know to be considered observing "Judaism"?

There's some other points I have some problems with as well, such as exactly what is "traditional Judaism", but I'll stop-- at least at this point.

I don't know about theology, specifically, but whether one is observant or not, it is a fact that the vast majority of our literature, art, history, perhaps even music and cuisines, have been informed deeply or created in response to tradition and traditional text.

If I am an artist, for example, how can I really understand Impressionism, Expressionism, Surrealism, or other early modern artistic movements if I am completely ignorant of Romantic and Renaissance art, to say nothing of medieval and classical art? If I know nothing of brush techniques, canvas, sculpting, etc.? Maybe not having context and comprehension is sufficient for the average non-artist, but it's not enough to authentically call myself an artist.

I am not saying every Jew needs to be a trained theologian. I am saying every Jew needs to have thorough knowledge of Judaism, even if in order to critique or radically reconstruct it. Look at the great early Zionist writers like Ahad Ha-Am, Agnon, A.D. Gordon-- mostly secular Jews, but thoroughly educated, and their writings are rich with allusions to Torah and Talmud.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By the same token, I don't see why anyone should have a strong case for an authentic cultural Judaism unless they speak a Jewish language, are steeped in Jewish literature (including traditional text), art, and music, are thoroughly grounded in Jewish history, and have a nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch.

This is nonsense. You've just manages to expel an untold number of Jews from your pretentious little 'cultural' clique. So, for example, how many of these are beneath your standards?

​

 

[Levite]

This is nonsense. You've just manages to expel an untold number of Jews from your pretentious little 'cultural' clique. So, for example, how many of these are beneath your standards?

pix
​

I can't speak for the first picture, with all the individuals posing in front of a place selling non-kosher meat.

But as for the others, they mostly or all seem to be representative of communities that lived Jewish lives of engagement and observance. I don't see a point here.

And far from being pretentious, I think it is respectful of people to believe that no one should be cheapened by getting by without intellectual, emotional, and spiritual investment.

In any case, if a person is neither living an engaged and observant Jewish life, nor can they be bothered to educate themselves about Jewish history, tradition, language, and art, thus connecting themselves to the richness of Jewish culture, I fail to see how I am cutting them out of anything-- they have already done that to themselves.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., I fail to see how I am cutting them out of anything-- they have already done that to themselves.

True … they all look pretty isolated (no doubt because they fall short of your standards and "nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch").

 

[Levite]

True … they all look pretty isolated (no doubt because they fall short of your standards and "nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch").

I will take quality over quantity any time.

 

[Avi1001]

Very nice, Metis, I am in full agreement with these sentiments. How can anyone tell anyone else that they are not culturally Jewish ? Of course Judaism is much more than religion. It involves philosophy, ethics, morality, culture and other aspects.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on "traditional Judaism", which I will guess ain't so traditional.

The problem with the above I have is simply this: being "Jewish" is simply not a religion-- being involved with "Judaism", is. Most Israelis are secular, does that mean they're not "Jewish" (I'm obviously excluding those who are of different nationalities who may live in Israel, such as the Palestinians)?

Also, even when it comes to Judaism, just how well educated in Jewish theology does one have to be in order to follow "Judaism"? Certainly we both probably agree that it's better to know more than less, but is there some sort of litmus test as far as how much one must know to be considered observing "Judaism"?

There's some other points I have some problems with as well, such as exactly what is "traditional Judaism", but I'll stop-- at least at this point.

 

[Avi1001]

I get Kaplan's idea, and I at least respect the fact that his idea was for Reconstructionist Jews to observe, to practice, and to be knowledgeable about the tradition, even if their practice was limited to those mitzvot that they felt were morally and culturally uplifting or edifying, and even if his justification was merely that they were the folkways of Judaism. But ultimately, I think the idea of God as a concept in action rather than a being, an actual phenomenon, is meritless, and incompatible with traditional Jewish thought, or even fairly radically mystical Jewish thought. Green does better, though I still have a lot of problems with what he teaches-- but he also advocates thorough grounding in tradition and text for all.

I rather like the idea of "G-d as a concept in action rather than a being". This is rather logical from my POV. I disagree it is "incompatible with traditional Jewish thought". I think it would be interesting to debate this.

The majority of secular "cultural" Jews I have encountered are not Kaplan or Green......

Neither are the Conservative or Orthodox Jews I have met.

....or those who thoroughly immerse themselves in study to follow them. They are uneducated, disinterested in tradition and text, and far more willing to embrace lox and bagels than learning Hebrew or studying Torah.

This is a very arrogant comment. I am sorry to hear this kind of talk from a Rabbi.

My point is that most people who label themselves "cultural" Jews actually have little, if any, real interest in Jewish culture.

This is very broad oversimplification.

For some people interest can start with cultural Judaism and end religiously. That is the idea of folkways. Also, Chabad always asks Jews they meet to lay Tefillin. They believe this is the portal to religious practice.

When I have encountered secular "cultural" Jews who speak Hebrew, who learn Torah and Talmud, who are well-grounded in poetry, music, art, and literature of Jewish culture over the past couple of thousand years, who have a good grasp of Jewish history...that's different. I still don't get why they feel these things-- all of which were constructed around a core of Jewish observance and practice-- work without the theologies and practices of Jewish tradition. But I respect the engagement, the learning, the clear connection to Jewish culture.

So you respect cultural Jews who share similar interests and values to yours.

Anyone can do a lot of things. That doesn't mean all those things have merit.

If I consider myself a Frenchman, and I don't speak any French (except perhaps to say "Oui, oui!" "La femme, ah la femme!" or "Sacre bleu!"), have read nearly no French literature or poetry, have little if any experience of French art, have rarely if ever been to France and never lived there, know next to nothing of French history, and think that French cuisine is exemplified by onion soup, baguettes, and French fries, my case for being authentically French is fairly weak.

This is a poor analogy. Basically, you are using a broad brush and calling cultural Jews ignorant. There are intelligent and ignorant cultural Jews. Just as there are intelligent and ignorant Conservative and Orthodox Jews.

By the same token, I don't see why anyone should have a strong case for an authentic cultural Judaism unless they speak a Jewish language, are steeped in Jewish literature (including traditional text), art, and music, are thoroughly grounded in Jewish history, and have a nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch.

This is what you believe. There are many that believe otherwise.

 

[Me Myself]

I rather like the idea of "G-d as a concept in action rather than a being". This is rather logical from my POV. I disagree it is "incompatible with traditional Jewish thought". I think it would be interesting to debate this.


Neither are the Conservative or Orthodox Jews I have met.


This is a very arrogant comment. I am sorry to hear this kind of talk from a Rabbi.



This is very broad oversimplification.

For some people interest can start with cultural Judaism and end religiously. That is the idea of folkways. Also, Chabad always asks Jews they meet to lay Tefillin. They believe this is the portal to religious practice.



So you respect cultural Jews who share similar interests and values to yours.



This is a poor analogy. Basically, you are using a broad brush and calling cultural Jews ignorant. There are intelligent and ignorant cultural Jews. Just as there are intelligent and ignorant Conservative and Orthodox Jews.


This is what you believe. There are many that believe otherwise.

I ink I have a clear inderstanding or a reasonably clear understanding (or maybe at least an idea? ) of what Levite sees as jewish culture.

I apologize if I overlooked it, but what do you see as jewish culture?

I your view, what could make someone culturally jewish if this person does not follow the religion, does not know the language, does not follow the art, etc as levite says?

I am curious to understand different perspectives about what different jews see as "culturally jewish" beyond its religion, so it would be cool if you could help me with that

 

[Avi1001]

I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach.

If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.

I ink I have a clear inderstanding or a reasonably clear understanding (or maybe at least an idea? ) of what Levite sees as jewish culture.

I apologize if I overlooked it, but what do you see as jewish culture?

I your view, what could make someone culturally jewish if this person does not follow the religion, does not know the language, does not follow the art, etc as levite says?

I am curious to understand different perspectives about what different jews see as "culturally jewish" beyond its religion, so it would be cool if you could help me with that

 

[Me Myself]

I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach.

If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.

Your understanding is that eating bagels means being culturally jewish then?

(Will google bagels now )

 

[Flankerl]

I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach.

If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.

So you want to abandon Judaism.

Good for you.

 

[Avi1001]

So you want to abandon Judaism.

Good for you.

Making Judaism relevant is not abandoning it. If you involve people, culturally, you help both the people and the religion. Also, sarcasm doesn't win the argument.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By the same token, I don't see why anyone should have a strong case for an authentic cultural Judaism unless they speak a Jewish language, are steeped in Jewish literature (including traditional text), art, and music, are thoroughly grounded in Jewish history, and have a nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch.

This is nonsense. You've just manages to expel an untold number of Jews from your pretentious little 'cultural' clique. So, for example, how many of these are beneath your standards? ...

I will take quality over quantity any time.

And I would embrace any one of them in preference to those who would promote elitist bigotry in the name of Judaism. Perhaps you might extend your "nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures" to include some understanding of the ugly role played by such despicable cultural chauvinism in the our people's past.

 

[metis]

I don't know about theology, specifically, but whether one is observant or not, it is a fact that the vast majority of our literature, art, history, perhaps even music and cuisines, have been informed deeply or created in response to tradition and traditional text.

If I am an artist, for example, how can I really understand Impressionism, Expressionism, Surrealism, or other early modern artistic movements if I am completely ignorant of Romantic and Renaissance art, to say nothing of medieval and classical art? If I know nothing of brush techniques, canvas, sculpting, etc.? Maybe not having context and comprehension is sufficient for the average non-artist, but it's not enough to authentically call myself an artist.

I am not saying every Jew needs to be a trained theologian. I am saying every Jew needs to have thorough knowledge of Judaism, even if in order to critique or radically reconstruct it. Look at the great early Zionist writers like Ahad Ha-Am, Agnon, A.D. Gordon-- mostly secular Jews, but thoroughly educated, and their writings are rich with allusions to Torah and Talmud.

I agree that the above would be ideal, but people are people who make decisions and have beliefs based on what they feel is right, and that obviously varies a lot.

But also in our tradition is the willingness to disagree, which is the basis of our commentary system that we've been using for roughly 2500 years, and we've often referred to ourselves as being a "rope of sand"-- individuals, but united together when push comes to shove. We can argue like hell, and that certainly ain't gonna stop, but the bottom line is that we are still Jews with variable beliefs and actions, and we should respect that as best we can.

IOW, we can argue, but let's not forget to respect these individual and even branch differences. It's like being married-- if we operate on the basis that we always have to have it our way, good luck with that marriage lasting.

Anyhow, for better or worse, that's how I see it.

Shalom

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am saying every Jew needs to have thorough knowledge of Judaism, ...

I agree that the above would be ideal, but ...

And it would be ideal if every Jew had a thorough knowledge of science, and it would be ideal if every Jew had a thorough knowledge of first aid, and it would be ideal if …

What does this even mean? What would, in fact, be ideal is if some Jews stopped arrogating to themselves the right to delegitimize the rest as being of substandard quality. What would be ideal if if there was zero tolerance for such drivel.​

 

[metis]

Very nice, Metis, I am in full agreement with these sentiments. How can anyone tell anyone else that they are not culturally Jewish ? Of course Judaism is much more than religion. It involves philosophy, ethics, morality, culture and other aspects.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on "traditional Judaism", which I will guess ain't so traditional.

Thanks for the above, and the issue of "traditional Judaism" I'll give short shrift to because that's pretty much off-topic.

If someone says "I'm a "traditional Jew", I pretty much know where they're coming from, which is neither intrinsically good or bad in my book. But where I do have trouble with "traditional Judaism" is that it all too often is used to demean other approaches, and I don't see much positive coming out of that kind of stance.

Because of my anthropology background, I tend to take fairly long-term views on many subjects, so the question I would have to someone using that terminology would tend to be something like "Which Judaism is actually 'traditional' overall?". My point would be that all religions change over time, and Judaism has done much the same; plus all religions will continue to change over time, and I suspect Judaism will do much the same.

If Judaism had remained totally static, it likely would have disappeared over time, but what's remarkable about it is that it's actually quite flexible. We well know that interpretation and application has been viewed as being variable, but also that other innovations have come in and become absorbed at least by some, and that also has been variable.

For example, a thousand years ago, who would have thought we'd now have female rabbis? We see it in the various reform movements, but now even some orthodox are tampering with the idea, and some feel it's only time before we some being admitted as such in at least some orthodox shuls.

We also have to remember that bar mitzvahs didn't always exist, and that the Talmud was not given en toto at Sinai. The chasidim as we know them today didn't exist a thousand years ago, and they were not too welcome when they first appeared by many of the orthodox. And then there's Kabbalah, as interpreted by Madonna. :banghead3

So, to conclude, which branch or concept of Judaism is "traditional"? None-- we're all a "work in progress".

 

[RabbiO]

I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach.

If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.

Avi,

Maybe it's me, but I have no idea exactly what you mean by an "open tent philosophy to Judaism" and I am totally bewildered by what you refer to as "the outdated, good old boys club approach."

Based upon your second paragraph, if I am getting the gist of it, there could be a woman who is a Hindu who goes into a deli in New York, eats her first hamentaschen, likes it, and declares herself therefore to a Jew.

You seem to be saying that from that point onward - based on her declaration that she is a Jew, even though she does nothing further to learn about Jews and Judaism, has no involvement with the Jewish community but does thereafter eat one hamentaschen a week- she should be recognized and accepted as a Jew.

Peter