I don't think it was a fraud. It was a help.
everyone who goes to hell does so by their own sins, see Jeremiah 31:30.
see above
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I disagree. He's not a monster, I think.
I guess he didn't demand it. Jesus ended up offering himself as a sacrifice. I'm not sure how the deal was elaborated between these two.
At least you couldn't back your claim up that God demanded anything from him before he sent him to earth.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The theory that the cross was a "sacrifice" is post-cross speculation.
Thanks for asking.
I can elaborate...
When your friend enters the szene explaining that he himself would give you a famous canvas instead... and you agree... then it is fixed and I wouldn't have to pay you anything because your friend came and settled the issue..
I would thank your your friend for it.
Are you asking in which way God could possibly profit from a death?
There are many ways, I think. After Jesus's death people started to consider not killing someone for stating an opinion.
This death served as a lesson, for instance.
And God valued this lesson high, I suppose.
This is at least what I think.
I can elaborate...
One example as an analogy. If I owe you 1000 dollars but can't pay you back, I have a problem.
When your friend enters the szene explaining that he himself would give you a famous canvas instead... and you agree... then it is fixed and I wouldn't have to pay you anything because your friend came and settled the issue..
I would thank your your friend for it.
Are you asking in which way God could possibly profit from a death?
There are many ways, I think. After Jesus's death people started to consider not killing someone for stating an opinion.
This death served as a lesson, for instance.
And God valued this lesson high, I suppose.
This is at least what I think.
because now believeing humans can say that Jesus paid the price, see Matthew 20:28.
the torture + experiencing death (Jesus was in heaven before having a nice time, I suppose).
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The sins of mankind according to Jewish tradition are caused by the evil inclination. Jewish tradition teaches that the antidote to the evil inclination (yetzer hara) is Torah study not sacrifice.
Therefore, Jesus' death was unnessessary per Jewish tradition.
Kiddushin 30b:4-7
So too the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Israel: My children, I created an evil inclination, which is the wound, and I created Torah as its antidote. If you are engaged in Torah study you will not be given over into the hand of the evil inclination, as it is stated: “If you do well, shall it not be lifted up?” (Genesis 4:7). One who engages in Torah study lifts himself above the evil inclination. And if you do not engage in Torah study, you are given over to its power, as it is stated: “Sin crouches at the door” (Genesis 4:7)…
The alternative - i.e. that God didn't demand a sacrifice - suggests that Jesus's sacrifice was unnecessary.
As was the resurrection. In the original ending of the oldest gospel, Mark, the story ends with an empty tomb and the disciples confused and afraid.
The resurrection didn't show up as part of the story until decades later when the other gospels (and the long ending of Mark) were written.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
But what if I don't want to accept this friend's gift of paying my debt? What if I want to repay the debt on my own because I want to be responsible for my own debts? That's the difference. God doesn't give you a free will choice. He puts a gun to your head and says, "Sure, you can refuse my gift but then I'm going to burn you in hell forever because my justice demands payment for your sins." God is a slave to His own will. He wants to forgive you but His sense of justice will not allow Him to. So with tears in His eyes He sends you to hell to burn for eternity. The sad thing about this whole propaganda scheme is God is God. He's omnipotent. He shouldn't need payment in order to forgive someone. He should just be able to say "You're forgiven" just like He tells us to forgive without payment. So He can demand payment for forgiveness but we can't. God operates with a double standard.
If this whole mess of a doctrine doesn't make sense to the logical mind, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with you. It wasn't designed to make sense; it was designed to allow the church to cram a square peg into a round hole. Your job is not to try to figure out why none of this makes sense; you're job to just blindly accept it on faith and not ask any questions. That's how Christianity has managed to survive for so many centuries--by not allowing people to ask questions and if they did they were burned or excommunicated to stop them from polluting other obedient minds with the truth. It's all a lot like 1984 where the states tells you what the truth is and you don't question it.
Now the Internet is allowing people to investigate all this malarkey that Christianity tries to pass off for the truth and people are finding out that Christianity has sold them a bill of goods for 2000 years. They then put the pieces of this screwed-up jigsaw puzzle together and find they are looking at a Picasso painting. Everything is all out of proportion. Nothing makes sense. So they say, "To hell with this nonsense. I'm leaving." That's why membership in Christianity is going down and down and down with each passing year and churches are shutting their doors by the thousands. It was inevitable hat would happen when the Internet exposed all the Christian madness.
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Colt
Well-Known Member
The resurrection just wasn't written about until latter. A lot of times history isn't written about until after it happens.
Bree
Active Member
I know I always play the role of the defender of Atheists... (lol)...but in this case, I perfectly understand his reaction.
He didn't mean to offend the Christians' religious sentiment. He was that emotional because he is very often asked why he has become an Atheist, despite his Anglican background.
And since he is supppsed to justify himself, he went wild for an instant.
Back to the topic...he kinda has a point.
Because the necessity of the sacrifice is not in the Gospels. It is a late elaboration by Augustine of Hippo.
What I mean: Augustine misinterpreted the sacrifice, which has a deeper theological meaning.
Jesus fell victim of the men' s brutality. Which represented the sins of the world. By falling victim, he forgave the sins of the world as victim (hostia).
Ans sins are never a necessity. Sins are often the result of free will. And of chance, of course.
I think a lot of people miss the point of the death of Christ and its 'necessity'
Was it necessary for Christ to die? No. God could have walked away from mankind and let them spiral into the death and destruction that they brought upon themselves.
But he didnt. He chose to stay and help us. He chose to offer mankind a 'ransom' out of death and destruction. Eph 1:7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one,+ yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses,+ according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
The bible is clear on that ransom being a 'life for a life'
Our lives were doomed by death....but thru Christ, we have the hope of Life forever. And the value of Jesus life covers all of us because it is perfect and we are not.
It would be weird if it was written before it happened.
It just strikes me as telling that the story snowballs over time, and the really wild claims don't emerge until any eyewitnesses to the real events are all likely dead, so they're not available to say "no - it didn't happen that way."
On the plus side for the Christians, though: the way all this unfolded does suggest that there was a real (albeit embellished) historical Jesus. The Gospel authors wouldn't have had to wait for the eyewitnesses to die before making the absolutely wild claims if there were never any eyewitnesses (i.e. if Jesus were completely mythical).
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
I'm still confused. If I owe you $1000, how would you sacrificing a human pay me back? And what did we 'owe' to god that can be 'paid back' by sacrificing a human being? If Jesus died so that people would stop killing others for stating an opinion, why are people still killed for stating their opinion? Did his sacrifice not work?
If God needs nothing, then the death wouldn't be necessary to God. What else does that leave? Enjoyment?
What lesson?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Also consider that it was believed that Jesus would "soon return", so no urgent need to write down what happened.
The Urantia Book revelation of 1955 revealed who wrote the gospels and when.
I think Matthew 20:28 has been misunderstood, because Jesus could forgive sins even before his death.
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25
That is the reason why I think God didn’t require death to forgive sins.
Doesn't really explain why they chose to write down a mundane version fairly shortly after the events, but thanks for playing.
Sure it does.
Colt
Well-Known Member
You don’t know that they didn’t have other writings. You just really don’t want the story to be true.
Like the Book of Mormon, you mean?
The writings we do have show a pattern. This pattern doesn't magically disappear just by imagining other writings you'd like to exist but have no reason to believe actually do.
Don't presume to tell me what I think.