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Jesus (Yeshua): God, Son of God, A Prophet, The Messiah, Not Sure, None of the Above

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by t3gah, Dec 26, 2004.

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  1. God (Yahweh, haShem, Jehovah, G-d)

    28.3%
  2. Son of God (Yeshua, Jesus, Iesous)

    37.7%
  3. A Prophet

    39.6%
  4. The Messiah (Christ, Masiach, Kristos)

    35.8%
  5. not sure

    13.2%
  6. none of the above

    30.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The Bible is one, and is meant to be read as one.
     
  2. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Deut by that I meant that regardless of the genuine existance of Jesus, his teachings do offer some good advice. If someone elce was writing his words and he was just a charactor in a book so be it. I also think that Dr. Suess was a good teacher through the cat in the hat and other charactors. ;)

    wa:do
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I was being facetious, of course. At the same time, it is useful to remember that you have no first-hand knowledge of "his" teachings.

    As for these teachings, some the more platitudinous perhaps offer some good, though not particularly novel, advice. The rest seem little more than self-serving Christology. Green Eggs and Ham was far less uneven (though that too was clearly not kosher).
     
  4. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Well, I believe he (as) was a Prophet. However, I also belive he is the Messiah.
     
  5. mahayana

    mahayana Member

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    I choose the first three, though I usually say that Jesus was boddhisattva (enlightened teacher).

    He was a man who taught people to pray "OUR father who art in heaven," so he taught that every son is the son of god, every daughter the daughter of god. We are all part of god.

    He taught a great deal about the kingdom, which is within, and grows like a mighty tree from a tiny seed.

    And he taught love and compassion and pacifism.
     
  6. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    It is impossible to trust All of the Bible because of the contradictions. If someone says they believe all of the bible, then they would be a hypocrit. We should however trust some of it because it has been reinforced through the Quran. I realize christians do not believe Muhammad was a prophet; but some of the inconsistencies/lies of the bible have been corrected in this book. Also, some of the truths have been reinforced. In the book of Jeremiah he talks about how the books of the bible before him have been corrupted by the lying pens of the scribes."Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of YHWH. How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the Torah of YHWH,' when actually the lying pen of the Scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the Word of YHWH, what kind of Wisdom do they have?" Jeremiah 8:7-9

    I do not know exactly what the compilers of the Bible believed because I do not know how much it has been changed since from intentional changes to unintentional translation errors. The Quran again is a good guide, but we need to use reason as well when reading the Bible. It sure is a whole lot easier to follow the teachings of Paul than the teachings of the Prophets. There were rules from the Prophets, but according to Paul even cannibalism is ok. "There is nothing unclean of itself:but to him that esteemeth it to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Romans 14:14. This is quite contradictory to Deuteronomy 14 where it speaks of many things that are unclean.

    For those who believe ALL of the Bible is the word of God, riddle me this:
    Paul said "For whether we live therefore or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living." Romans14:8-9.
    Jesus said: "Have ye not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying:I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:31-32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38
    2 opposite statements for those who believe Jesus is God. Can one believe both?
    Also, in Matthew 1:1-16, it traces the lineage of Jesus, the descendent of David. Oddly, it traces it to Joseph, the husband of Mary, but Joseph did not take part "making" Jesus.

    Because Jesus was a Nazarite, he would not eat flesh, much as John the Baptist did not eat flesh. I realize the bible says John ate locusts, but this refers to the fruit of the locust tree, which is the carob(a tasty replacement for chocolate for those who have not tried it). The reason for taking the Nazarite vow is to become closer with God. Jesus would not have said it is weak to do something to become closer to God.
    There is no way to be absolutely sure unless I was with Jesus his whole life, right by his side listening to every word he said. Obviously I was not, so I have to rely on reasoning and logic.
    Sorry if I am too long winded.
    And to stay on topic, I still believe Jesus was a prophet, the Messiah, and the "son of God"-as we are all "children" of God.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Oh what a tangled web we weave ...
     
  8. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I just read a paper called The Son of Adam, I am told it is by Isa Adam Naziri. It deals with the initial question posed here. He puts things much better than I could even hope to. Someone gave me a paper copy of it; I have been unable to find it on the internet, but it is probably out there somewhere. If I find it I will post the site if anyone is interested.
     
  9. mahayana

    mahayana Member

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    Some have this conversation by contrasting the "historical" Jesus with the Jesus of the New Testament (with all the doctrines and theology). I started out by considering just his sayings, the things in red print in an old King James version. Then I took out the things that seemed contrary to his essential message of how we should live and of god being our loving father. The story of the crucifiction has always affected me, but as an outrageous example of man's error, rather than as a propitiation to god. Jesus wasn't the messiah jews sought, but rather a conqueror and ruler of hearts.
     
  10. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    As I grew up Christian, the story of the crucifiction didn't seem to make sense. Most of the people around me at church were so moved by the story of someone(or a God) giving up his life for God and removing the sins of the world that they did not think. Even at a young age I was baffled by the story. Why would God demand a human sacrifice? If Jesus is God, then why would God sacrifice himself? And this sacrifice removes the sins of the world for eternity? People all over today say "Jesus died for our sins brother." Seems like a pagan ritual or something satanic to have a human sacrifice. If you read the Quran there is a vague explanation, but it basically says he did not die on the cross. There are clues in the bible that he was not dead. A good one is after he was dead 3 days (I have not smelled a 3 day old corpse in a desert area, but I don't think it would smell very good) Mary went to the tomb with spices and ointments. Why spices and ointments for a body that has been dead 3 days? Also, when Jesus was taken from the cross, "And there came also Nicodemus, which at first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about 100 pounds."(John 19:39) Why bring healing herbs to a dead corpse??? When Joseph of Arimathea asked for the body of Jesus, "Pilate marvelled if he were already dead." (Mark 15:44). It seems Pilate, who would have seem many, many, many crucifictions was amazed that Jesus had died so quickly. When he was stabbed in the side, blood poured out; that might make a thinker think that perhaps the heart was still beating. Jesus did rise on the third day, not from his death, but from his healing slumber in a tomb.
     
  11. mahayana

    mahayana Member

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    John,

    The doubting Thomas story raises questions, if we accept your premise. Why didn't Thomas recognise Jesus, if he merely didn't die? And where did he go, if he was a man who survived being crucified? Left the country and hid out the rest of his life?
     
  12. mahayana

    mahayana Member

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    There was a book many years ago entitled "The Passover Plot" which argued that Jesus planned to fake his death and ressurection. Perhaps there was a drug in the vinegar that made Jesus appear to die, or "angel" alien doctors brought him back to life in the tomb and they all beamed up to "heaven?"
     
  13. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like the spaceship story I heard years ago about how God is going to do it in the end. He's going to come for those he wants to save in his spaceship where he will be taking people to the "new earth" mentioned in the scriptures. The "new heaven" is elsewhere also. Then God blows this planet up and the saved live happily ever after on some other planet that's just like this one was in the beginning. I wish I could remember where I heard this story.
     
  14. Moses the God Archetype*

    Moses the God Archetype* Active Member

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    :tsk: We seem to have forgotten that God came here once before as the great Hare-Krishna to spread truth and love to those that were willing to accept him, i think the reason that most people don't remember krishna in there topics of discussion is that he came so long before the time of chirst that he does not come into our radar except for those that search for him with a longing heart and thirst for knowlegde,ye who seek shall find my people, chirst was nothin more than Krishna returned in another vessel but essentally teaching us lesser enlighted mortals the same message,of devotion(bhakti) to serve the greater good in the divines path only this time that message was giving thru self sacfrice.......
     
  15. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    Does man need Satan to do wrong? When he himself is one of the greatest doers of wrong in existance?
     
  16. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The Passover Plot was written forty years ago and you seem to have forgotten the author's explanation of the story in significant areas.

    No aliens, no alien doctors, no spaceships. The author would be shocked to have those things tied to his work.

    He postulated that Jesus was drugged on the cross and taken down alive, but when the centurion pierced him in the ribs with his spear that mortally wounded Jesus and He expired later from the wound.

    Aside from this contention, The Passover Plot is one of the best popular works on the early years of Christianity which was the study area of H. J. Schonfeld, the book's author.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  17. Moses the God Archetype*

    Moses the God Archetype* Active Member

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    Yes he was the son of god(bhagavan sri krsna), he was the incarnation of balarama krsna's first expansion or creation should we say, thru him maya gain footing she was able to grow into what we see today as reality jesus(yeshua-baladeva)....
     
  18. Moses the God Archetype*

    Moses the God Archetype* Active Member

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    But to make a correction jesus is the incarnation of balarama the first expansion of the lord or creation as it were, indeed he was the word.:eek:
     
  19. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Jesus was dead. Check this out. John 19:34 "Instead, one of the soilders pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water". Before he died, Jesus went into hypovolemic shock . This is the effect when someone looses large amounts of blood. This does four things: 1) the heart races to rty and pump blood that isn't there. 2)the blood pressure drops drops causing fainting or collapsing. 3)the kidneys stop producing urine to maintain what volume is left.. 4)the person become very thirsty and the body crave fluids to replace the lost blood volume. Jesus was in hypovolemic shock as he staggered up the road to the execution site, carrying the horizontal beam of the cross. Finally Jesus collapsed and the Roman soilder ordered Siomon to carry the cross for him and Jesus said "I thirst" at which point a sip of vinegar was offered to him.

    What does this have to do with John:19:34? Keep reading. The hypovolemic shock would have caused a sustained rapid heart rate that would have contributed to heart failure, resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart called a pericardial effusion. And when that Roman speared Jesus to make sure he was dead he would have most likely stabbed him in the heart because Roman soilders had a lot of incentive to make sure that a crucifixion crimnal is dead before they take them down (if they were not dead, that soilder would have been executed). And when he pulled that spear out, some fluid, the pericardial effusion, came out which would have had the appearance of a clear, fluid like waterfollwed by a large volume of blood, as the eyewitness John descrbed in in his gospel.
     
  20. JillianMarie77

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    I chose none of the above.

    But you forgot Avatar (Vishnu, Krishna, Jesus).

    But I don't necessarily believe that either.

    *IF* he existed I'm sure he was a very charismatic spiritual teacher.
     
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