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Featured Jesus Wrote the Old Testament

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Kemosloby, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Egyptians were Sabbath keepers? I doubt that...
     
  2. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Possible.....who cares?
     
  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Moses never heard the voice of God. He heard an angel.

    Acts 7:
    30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

    31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

    32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

    33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

    34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

    35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

    Stephen was stoned for revealing the truth.

    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


    Which is why Jesus told the Jews, that their father(s) were of the devil:

    John:
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  4. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    How can they have written the 10 commandments if they didn't keep the Sabbath day. I believe it is the 4th commandment to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
     
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    LOL! And what does Christianity's NT have to do with Tanakh?

    Tanakh says what it says. Later Christian writers can't change it.

    Tanakh says the Hebrew God's name is YHVH. YHVH Elohiym.

    Exo 3:2 And the angel/messenger of YHVH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

    Exo 3:4 And when YHVH saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    Exo 3:15 And Elohiym/God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHVH Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac, and the Elohiym of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Exo 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, YHVH Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

    ALSO - it is in your NT in shortened form.

    Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    Every time you say halleluiah/allēlouia you are saying praise Yah = YHVH

    Allēlouia is from [H1984] and [H3050] = praise ye Yah!

    H 3050 says it is a contracted form of YHVH.

    So there you go.

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    #85 Ingledsva, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  6. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Again, perspective. Jesus said to teach the "Gospel", not the Bible. Not the OT. Not Revelations.

    The Psalmist wrote:
    Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

    John says:
    For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    The Gospel and the OT is like oil and water. If the OT were truth from the Father, there would be no need for Christ, and men would not have died, waiting for someone to save them.

    John:
    This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    If the OT god was God, he never saved the Jews from death. Why would I listen to him?

    The "truth" is Jesus the first Christ. Who taught us that being a christ (accepting the spiritual chrism) is what saves us from death. The Jews never had it, nor did their fathers know of it.

    The whole Gospel message is based on this truth, as a mystery one see's and understands through (spiritual) seeking. Orthodoxy is oil and water. Gnosis is the water (of life).
     
  7. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    If the 10 commandments were in effect, would the Gospel message contain this:

    Luke:
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    What about the "honor mother and father" commandment?

    Luke
    50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

    The "Law" was for the flesh. Jesus taught spirit, not flesh. The Law was transformed to a spiritual understanding over fleshly compliance. The sword Jesus brought separates spirit from flesh.

    The "baptism" to be baptized with is the chrism. It is spiritual, and cannot be obtained by following the "law".
     
  8. SSBGoku

    SSBGoku Member

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    Yeah, Clement believed Jesus spoke the Old Testament:

    Clement quotes the Old Testament when quoting Jesus. Like Paul, Clement had no idea about an Earthly Jesus. • r/DebateAChristian
     
  9. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yahweh had No birth I find according to Psalms 90:2 because God is from everlasting (No beginning).
    Yahweh (YHWH) is Creator and Not created according to Revelation 4:11.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for all your ^ above ^ comments.
    I find the linen ephod (sleeveless coat) was also worn by young Samuel at 1 Samuel 2:18 and he was Not priest.
    Any comments about Leviticus 1:1-4 because Moses was Not priest. Also, the ' they ' of 1 Chronicles 16:1-4.
    Melchizedek was both ' king and priest ' and Jesus would be permanent ' king and priest ' meaning no successors
    as I find at Hebrews chapters 6 and 7.
    Whereas, King David will be ' prince ' as connecting the ' dots' to Ezekiel 34:24; Psalms 45:16 B; Isaiah 32:1.
    David is still asleep in the grave according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34. David will be ' Prince ' under 'King' Christ Jesus. So, I find 'David's Lord ' of Psalms 110:1; Psalms 110:4 is Not David but Jesus Christ in his combined office of both king and priest forever because Jesus is death proof forever as per John 5:26. Jesus, Not David, has the resurrection power - Revelation 1:18; John 6:54 B.
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    He was just saying that. There's no record of him before about 1500 BCE. Ask some of the older gods ─ Ninhursag, or Enki, or Isis, or Amun ─ if they remember him around before then.
     
  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    LOL! Let us stop right there.

    There were no "gospels" when Jesus taught.

    Jesus was a JEW teaching TANAKH - period!!!!!!

    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    That "gospel" is actually euaggelion which means good tidings/message, of Tanakh, - not the "gospels," which were nonexistent at that time.

    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and proclaim the good tidings/message to all creation.

    *
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I suppose you are referring to the writings of Moses.
    Before Moses there was Noah and Noah's great-grandson Nimrod of Genesis 10.
    So, mankind in general can trace its religious family tree back to its base with Nimrod in Babylon.
    As the people migrated out of ancient Babylon they took with them their non-biblical religious practices and ideas and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
    That is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious ideas or customs spread throughout the Earth.
    So, to me, those ' older gods ' could even be connected to pre-flood 'gods ' meaning before the Flood of Noah's day.
    Anything perishable would Not have survived the Flood except for what Noah took on the Ark.
    Noah could have had writings that could have been passed down later to Moses.
    Genesis 5:1 talks of the ' book of generations ' which Moses, through Noah, could have had access to and use such information in his writings.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I don't understand why you say Not Revelations.
    I find there is one Revelation with 16 visions, and according to Revelation 1 Jesus gave that Revelation to John.
    Since Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written...." that written part was found written in the old Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus based his teachings on those OT Scriptures explaining them for us.
    True, Jesus said to teach the ' gospel ' such as found at Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8 and that would be the good news gospel about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 as the solution to mankind's problems when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    No, to the findings of archaeology and to ancient texts from Sumer and from Egypt.
    The complete lack of evidence for Noah's flood, when a catastrophe of that size must have left huge quantities of unambiguous evidence everywhere, persuades me without much effort that no such flood occurred; indeed that at no time in the earth's 4.5 bn year history has the entirety of the land ever been under water at one time.

    Examples (from a huge field) of missing evidence that must be there if the Flood had really occurred are (1) a single geological flood layer all over all continents and the ocean floor, (2) a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal (including humans), every bottleneck dating back to the same recent date; and (3) an extra 1.113 bn cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth ─ none of which is present at all.

    So I fear I must firmly disagree with your statement.
     
  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    WOW! you folks continue to take verses out of context! If you had not done so - you would know -

    1Sa 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but YHVH had shut up her womb.

    1Sa 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

    1Sa 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O YHVH of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto YHVH all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

    1Sa 1:20 Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of YHVH.

    1Sa 1:24 And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of YHVH in Shiloh: and the child was young.

    1Sa 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to YHVH; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to YHVH. And he worshipped YHVH there. (Temple)

    1Sa 2:18 But Samuel ministered before YHVH, being a child, girded with a linen ephod.

    1Sa 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto YHVH before Eli. And the word of YHVHwas precious in those days; there was no open vision.


    1Sa 3:20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of YHVH.

    1Sa 3:21 And YHVH appeared again in Shiloh: for YHVH revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of YHVH.

    He was dedicated to YHVH from his conception.

    "5. Moses as a priest: (descendants of Kohath)

    a. Aaron and Moses were sons of Kohath, the second son of Levi, but had special pre-eminence over all others

    b. Moses was called a priest: “Moses and Aaron were among His priests, And Samuel was among those who called on His name; They called upon the LORD and He answered them.” (Psalm 99:6)

    c. Moses functioned as a priest on three occasions, all before the priesthood was consecrated to serve "after the order of Aaron."

    a. Ex 24, when he sprinkled the book and the people at the ratification of the Law

    b. Ex 40:22f, when he set up the tabernacle, put bread on the table, burned incense on the altar of incense, and offered a burnt offering and meal offering on the altar of burnt offering

    c. Lev 8, when he anointed the tabernacle and all that was in it, the priests, and offered a sin offering, a burnt offering and an ordination offering for the consecration of the priests.

    d. After that priests must be "after the order of Aaron," Heb 7:11.

    d. Why Moses is called a priest in Ps 99:6 may be a matter a special privilege since he functioned as HIGH priest before Aaron got his exclusive rights. It really should not surprise us. Why would he LOSE this power and position when he appointed Aaron? I think the answer is that he did not. Moses must have been a full priest forever, but thereafter Aaron's sons were the chosen ones.

    e. It is interesting that Jonathan in 1300 BC was a son of Moses and functioned as a priest. “The sons of Dan set up for themselves the graven image; and Jonathan, the son of Gershon, the son of Moses, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land.” (Judges 18:30) This Jonathan was in fact responsible for the paganism and idolatry that eventually sent the Danites in Laish (Dan) and the ten tribes into extinction in 722 BC." The Levitical Priesthood

    AND - "As for how we link the prophet Samuel to the rebellious Korah’s line, we turn to 1 Chronicles 6:22-27. This passage establishes that Samuel’s father Elkanah was a descendant of Korah, who was in turn a descendant of Kohath, who was in turn a descendant of Levi. Thus, we can say with Scriptural certainty that Samuel is a member of the Kohathite branch of the tribe of Levi." (Archive) Biblical Questions: Samuel’s Levitical Ancestry

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  18. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Nice spin. Gospel means "good news". Jesus spent 3 years teaching the truth of the good news. Look up the definition of "news".

    News: "newly received or noteworthy information, especially about recent or important events."

    Jesus was the Word of God. Never heard.

    Stay with the old beliefs if you wish. But those people died (per the "news")

    The Holy Spirit spoke to those who wanted to proclaim Moses and Isaiah.

    From all 3 synoptic gospels:
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

    When the Holy Spirit speaks, I listen. And it didn't say to listen to Moses, or Isaiah. Just the one left, Jesus.

    I'm sure that same thought occurred to the disciples as they were eating dirt.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at 1 Samuel 3:20 that Samuel was Not a priest, but a prophet. To me there is a difference.
     
  20. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    How can it be "spin" when the Gospels did not exist, - as I said.

    The Gospels were written long after Jesus was dead.

    Jesus taught Tanakh.

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