Well look me up if you want the scriptures that disprove the trinity theory.
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Jesus Wrote the Old Testament
- Thread starter Kemosloby
- Start date
Well look me up if you want the scriptures that disprove the trinity theory.
Oh I am aware of those already.
But I must apologize, since it seems I have made an incorrect assumption that you were Trinitarian.
So you don not believe in the Trinity but you believe in the equivalence between Jesus and the Lord?? That's a rather unique combination, would you be willing to elaborate?? (in a new thread or a PM maybe, if it is too off topic)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, let's see, they teach the gospel, moral behavior, compassion and justice for others, the love taught by Jesus, etc. Ya, I can see where that might not be appealing to you.
It shows.
Apparently your version of "truth".
Anyhow, enuff.
Correct, Im no trinitarian. Jesus is the Lord of the old Testament. But there are two lords, the Son and the Father. Both are called Lord.
Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
So you see that Jesus, the lesser Lord was the Lord of David, the one who spoke to him.
Do they practice what they preach? Do they teach the gospel correctly?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
So, if I quote the Declaration of Independence, that makes me the author?
Aren't there fanatics who get crucified every Easter?
Anyone can say anything. Show us where Jesus is in the OT.
I thought Pete was the Rock.
A Psalm ABOUT David.
Are all feudal lords "Lord"?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
To those who may have a strong enough bigotry so as to only stereotype and demean them, probably not.
All this time ive been posting and you're still asking those questions??...
I think you mean criticize them...they don't like to be criticized which is why they elect an "infallible" pope.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Balderdash! It's definitely not your handwriting.
What an astonishing claim!
There is only one god in the Tanakh, and that's Yahweh ─ the god Jesus worships, as he says specifically in John 20:17, and acknowledges as the sole god in all four gospels eg
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
and much more. And what else would you expect a circumcized Jew to say?
Don't forget that the Trinity wasn't invented until the 3rd or 4th century CE.
And don't forget that Jesus has virtually none of the qualifications of a messiah, whom the Tanakh portrays as a warlord who will restore independence to the Jewish state. He isn't even anointed by the Jewish priesthood, which is what 'messiah' means.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I agree; it was Jesus talking.
I'm not quite sure of what you mean by this sentence, though:
You don't believe that the Father and the Son are separate beings, and you believe that the "Lord" spoken of in the Old Testament was Jesus. Am I right so far? So, how do you see God the Father figuring into things?
So Jesus, the Lord in the Old Testament, was doing the same as he did when he came in the flesh, He was doing his Fathers will. One of the Lord's in the old testament, the one who spoke to the prophets much like the one who spoke to the Apostles. Since there is one God and two "Lords"
Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
About the same as when Jesus came in the Flesh. Jesus was always a middleman for God the Father.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I do not believe for one moment that the writers of the Jewish scriptures associated Jesus with God.
Nor that when they wrote Lord did they mean The son of God.
The Idea is preposterous.
Neither they nor their prophets had Jesus in mind at all, and would find the concept offensive.
Nor that when they wrote Lord did they mean The son of God.
The Idea is preposterous.
Neither they nor their prophets had Jesus in mind at all, and would find the concept offensive.
Profound Realization
Active Member
I can agree in other ways.
Such as the sol o man (energy/power/light source within man) writing the OT. Commonly referred to as the “son of man.”
The source of “God” within man.
But, I am also a heretic in many other ways. Such as seeing the law and OT as an internal law and internal scribed constitution rather than a lot being historical and literal.
Joshua-Yeshua/Yeshuah
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But we know that's a saying from a particular time and culture. Nothing validates trying to retrofit the beliefs from 500 to 1000 years later onto an old text.
And the early Tanakh refers to the 'sons of god' plural in various places. They appear to represent courtiers at the heavenly court. And this early period is not yet monotheistic ─
Exodus 15:11 Who is like thee, O Lord, among the gods?
Who is like thee, majestic in holiness ...
Numbers 33:4 upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
Deuteronomy. 32:8-9 ... he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God;
Judges 11:23-24 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them
Who is like thee, majestic in holiness ...
Numbers 33:4 upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
Deuteronomy. 32:8-9 ... he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God;
Judges 11:23-24 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them
Psalms 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
Psalms 86:8 There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord,
nor are there any works like thine.
Psalms 95:3 For the Lord is a great god,
and a great King above all gods.
Psalms 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great;
and that our Lord is above all gods.
And the Decalogue requires believers to have no gods before Yahweh, not to have no other gods.in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
Psalms 86:8 There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord,
nor are there any works like thine.
Psalms 95:3 For the Lord is a great god,
and a great King above all gods.
Psalms 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great;
and that our Lord is above all gods.
But as the 1st millennium BCE progresses ─ a number of reputable scholars put it down to the time of the Captivity ─ the others fade out of mention and monotheism eases in.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
NOPE! The word that has been translated 6528 times - by Christians - as Lord, - is actually YHVH, - the name of the ONE Hebrew GOD. No trinity.
Incorrect! He is quoting a Tanakh text, not saying he is the "I" in the text.
The word used in both the Greek and Hebrew has several meanings, including God and his elect such as Judges, Kings, The Messiah, etc.
In John 10 Jesus is not claiming to be GOD, - he has challenged the Priest Judges, saying he is THE Anointed, Judge, or Magistrate, The Messiah. The Messiah was to bring the end and FINAL JUDGMENT!
When they claim he blasphemes, he quotes from Psalm 82 - Which is a whole section on bad judges, where they are told -
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are (Elohiym), And all of you are the sons of the Most High."
Elohiym does not just mean gods, - and in this case it is saying they shall be righteous Judges over the Israelites.
Jesus is saying (as per the OT quote) He is a/or THE final Anointed Judge/Magistrate = Messiah.
Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christos/Messiah, tell us plainly. (They ask if he is the awaited MESSIAH/Anointed/Christos)
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.(Jesus says he told them yes and they didn't believe him)
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are theos? (In reference to original blasphemy charge- calling himself the awaited Messiah)
Joh 10:35 If he called them Theos(/elect/sons of God,Judges) unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified/consecrated/annointed, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Both elohiym in the Hebrew and theos in the Greek have the meaning - elect - Judge/Magistrate - son of God, as well as God.
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"Ye are gods (theoi este). Another direct quotation after eipa but without hoti. The judges of Israel abused their office and God is represented in Psa_82:6 as calling them (theoi, elohim) because they were God’s representatives. See the same use of elohim in Exo 21:6, Exo 22:9, Exo 22:28. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way." - Robertson's WORD Pictures of the New Testament."
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John 10:34-36
"Is it not written in your law — in Psa_82:6, respecting judges or magistrates.
Ye are gods — being the official representatives and commissioned agents of God." - Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Commentary.
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"In your law - Psa_82:6. The word "law" here, is used to include the Old Testament.
I said - The Psalmist said, or God said by the Psalmist.
Ye are gods - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated "god," אלהים̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo 7:1; Exo 4:16." - Albert Barnes Notes On the Bible.
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Attachments
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Nope, Just quoting Tanakh. Psalm 82:6 is about JUDGES. The awaited MESSIAH is to be the Final Anointed JUDGE at the end.
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are (Elohiym), And all of you are the sons of the Most High."
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