Jesus Will Never Return

[Brian Schuh]

But the current Jewish belief in Moshiach, although far fetched, is still within the realm of possible. Maimonides removed the miraculous from Moshiach. He claimed that the coming of Moshiach will not necessarily be accompanied with miracles. It might be farfetched that a great leader will come to lead the world to peace and prosperity, but it is within the realm of possibility. But for a "Santa Claus" to arrive with tens of thousands of extraterrestrials to judge the living and dead, just appearing in the sky without his feet touching the ground, that is just fantasy.

 

[MJFlores]

The millerites said the world will end October 22, 1844. They sold their houses and farms and gave all their $ to the sick and poor. Then they all climbed a mountain in nothing but pure white robes and waited for Jesus to come back. When I told this to my girlfriend, she said, "that's just retarded." Right, all y'all waiting for Jesus to come back, y'all varying degrees and levels of being retarded.

Same thing happened with Harold Camping and his followers

Harold Camping - Wikipedia

Regardless of these failed predictions - the Lord Jesus Christ will return one day - even Jesus doesn't know when, how can they predict that?

Matthew 24:36 Mark 13:32
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven,nor the Son, but only the Father.

Only the one and only true God - the Father, knows.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I haven't tried sheep because it is not available where I am, so I have no idea. But your comment...

View attachment 17627

Matthew 25:31-33 New International Version (NIV)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Sheep and Goats are symbolical representation of people who are his and not his, respectively.

But why hate on goats? Goats are adorable.

It's similar to the idea there are good plants and weeds. "Weeds" are just plants we don't like. They are not objectively bad. Just makes him seem racist against goats and dandelions, really.

 

[MJFlores]

But why hate on goats? Goats are adorable.

It's similar to the idea there are good plants and weeds. "Weeds" are just plants we don't like. They are not objectively bad. Just makes him seem racist against goats and dandelions, really.

Baby goats are really cute.
Sheep are docile than goats, that is my opinion.
And that is also the opinion of one blogger.
Ask Martok: Keeping Sheep Versus Goats - Hobby Farms

On weeds, they are pesky really.
I have a couple of these weeds at my backyard.
If unkempt for too long, I would notice a snake crawling by.

But other people like weeds.

In my country, drug dealers and addicts are killed almost daily.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ezekiel 37:24 - The whole Ezekiel 37 is a reference to the vision of Ezekiel about the "Dry Bones" which means the return of Israel from exile. And verse 24 is a reference to a Government based on the Tribe of Judah which the Lord Himself promised would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever if you read I Kings 11:36 and II Kings 8:19.

That doesn't answer the question, Ben Avraham.
'David my servant shall be king over them;' Ezekiel 37:24. Who does this refer to?

 

[Ben Avraham]

The millerites said the world will end October 22, 1844. They sold their houses and farms and gave all their $ to the sick and poor. Then they all climbed a mountain in nothing but pure white robes and waited for Jesus to come back. When I told this to my girlfriend, she said, "that's just retarded." Right, all y'all waiting for Jesus to come back, y'all varying degrees and levels of being retarded.

First, and Jesus did not come back. Second, and the world did not end on October 22, 1844. And last but not least, instead of taking advantage to stop with their nonsensical kind of faith, they went ahead and created a new church which we today call the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Well, I think your girlfriend was right!

 

[Ben Avraham]

That doesn't answer the question, Ben Avraham.
'David my servant shall be king over them;' Ezekiel 37:24. Who does this refer to?

If you think logically, King David by then (Ezekiel 37:24) was dead and the dead once dead could never return from the grave. So, if you read II Samuel 12:23 the reference in Ezekiel 37:24 was to Judah as that lamp promised by the Lord to King David which would remain forever in Jerusalem. That's what we have today.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Mr. Ben said:


And the only way to go directly to God is through obedience of the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Jesus never said such a thing. He never had any thing to do with the NT. BTW, he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

View attachment 17653

But you quote from the NT so the NT which is the gospel would answer.
Gospel - Wikipedia

And Jesus said these words:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 26:13
Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Mark 10:29
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

I think by the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, himself - he did not only dreamed that the NT would rise but he knew it will be preached to all nations.

MJF, what I quote from the NT about Jesus are the blunders the Hellenists who wrote the NT committed about Jesus or the Fathers of Church. From what I have read the NT, 20% I consider to be true about Jesus as the Jew that he was. 80% is made up of anti-Jewish interpolations forged into the text to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. But if you ask me what I do believe, not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. The whole NT was written by Hellenists, some of them former disciples of Paul. Obviously, Jews would not write against their own Faith.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If I were Christ, I wouldn't come back either. Humans are quite dreadful and sad.

Well, my friend, Jesus did not have that option to come back or not. Jesus was a Jew and, according to his gospel aka the Tanach, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

 

[MJFlores]

MJF, what I quote from the NT about Jesus are the blunders the Hellenists who wrote the NT committed about Jesus or the Fathers of Church. From what I have read the NT, 20% I consider to be true about Jesus as the Jew that he was. 80% is made up of anti-Jewish interpolations forged into the text to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. But if you ask me what I do believe, not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. The whole NT was written by Hellenists, some of them former disciples of Paul. Obviously, Jews would not write against their own Faith.

Well, it is your opinion.

But for me, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, Paul and the rest of the apostles worked for the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. They were once Jews but when they became disciples of the Messiah, they are followers of Christ or Christians.

Paul (once Saul) even debated the Hellenist Jews and tried to kill him.

Acts 9:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they tried to kill him. When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

So he couldn't be a Hellenist but a Christian.

Acts 26:25-29 New International Version (NIV)

“I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”

Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”

Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”

What are the Jews now today?

Why read the scriptures and whirl around a chicken over head? Is that even in the Torah?

 

[MJFlores]

But the current Jewish belief in Moshiach, although far fetched, is still within the realm of possible. Maimonides removed the miraculous from Moshiach. He claimed that the coming of Moshiach will not necessarily be accompanied with miracles. It might be farfetched that a great leader will come to lead the world to peace and prosperity, but it is within the realm of possibility. But for a "Santa Claus" to arrive with tens of thousands of extraterrestrials to judge the living and dead, just appearing in the sky without his feet touching the ground, that is just fantasy.

But for a "Santa Claus" to arrive with tens of thousands of extraterrestrials to judge the living and dead, just appearing in the sky without his feet touching the ground, that is just fantasy.

Yes you are right - Santa Claus is just a made up fantasy.

However, the Lord Jesus Christ is not Santa Claus and he will definitely return. When he comes, then the long wait would be over - he will save his and leave many behind. And he will leave behind the Jews, he will leave behind the Christians who believe he is God or a member of the Trinity and he will leave behind people who didn't even bothered to know him.

 

[Redemptionsong]

If you think logically, King David by then (Ezekiel 37:24) was dead and the dead once dead could never return from the grave. So, if you read II Samuel 12:23 the reference in Ezekiel 37:24 was to Judah as that lamp promised by the Lord to King David which would remain forever in Jerusalem. That's what we have today.

OK, we agree that Ezekiel 37:24 cannot be a reference to King David, since he was dead by the time Ezekiel wrote his prophecy. The question remains, who does this passage refer to? You say that it must be Judah, but this does not fit with the scripture. Look more carefully.
Verse 24, 'David my servant shall be king over them [the children of Israel, see verse 21]. Then it says,'and my servant David shall be their prince for ever' (verse 25). God's servant, David, will be prince of Israel for ever. This cannot therefore be Judah, for Judah cannot be the prince of Israel. How can a people who die (2 Samuel 12:23) be a 'prince of Israel for ever'?

In Ezekiel 34:23,24, it says 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David;'
So the prince is also the shepherd of Israel. And since Israel already has 'shepherds' (Ezek. 34:10), how can Judah be the shepherd of Israel? It makes no sense. Where is the logic in that! Unless, of course, you want to be blasphemous and suggest that Psalm 23:1 refers to Judah!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well, it is your opinion. But for me, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, Paul and the rest of the apostles worked for the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. They were once Jews but when they became disciples of the Messiah, they are followers of Christ or Christians.

Paul was never chosen to be an apostle of Jesus as the other were because Paul never even saw Jesus. He self-claimed to be an apostle but the Apostles of Jesus never acknowledged him an apostle. When Paul came to Jerusalem to apply to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, the Apostles of Jesus rejected him and said he could not even be a disciple. (Acts 9:26) Regarding being the Messiah, Jesus could not have been the one as an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever.
(Jeremiah 31:35-37)

So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they tried to kill him. When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

The Apostles took Paul down to Caesarea and from there they sent Paul to Tarsus where he belonged because he was causing a havoc in Jerusalem, preaching about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected if you read II Timothy 2:8 and Acts 9:20. In other words, he was banned from Jerusalem to Tarsus, never to return but, after 14 years he was back for the last time when he was transferred to Rome where he died after two years. (Acts 28:16)

So he couldn't be a Hellenist but a Christian. Acts 26:25-29 New International Version (NIV)

He was a Christian alright but because he founded the Christian Church in Antioch. (Acts 11:26) But according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Christian Church was founded by Paul on the basis of Hellenistic culture.

“I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.” Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?” Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”

Paul was at that time in chains and in his way to Rome where he died after two years during housing arrest.

What are the Jews now today? Why read the scriptures and whirl around a chicken over head? Is that even in the Torah?

That is one of the Yom Kippur rituals still in use among the Ultra Orthodox Hassid Jews among the Ashkenazim. I don't even know where they got that ritual from Because, it is not in the Tanach.

 

[Ben Avraham]

OK, we agree that Ezekiel 37:24 cannot be a reference to King David, since he was dead by the time Ezekiel wrote his prophecy. The question remains, who does this passage refer to? You say that it must be Judah, but this does not fit with the scripture. Look more carefully. Verse 24, 'David my servant shall be king over them [the children of Israel, see verse 21]. Then it says,'and my servant David shall be their prince for ever' (verse 25). God's servant, David, will be prince of Israel for ever. This cannot therefore be Judah, for Judah cannot be the prince of Israel. How can a people who die (2 Samuel 12:23) be a 'prince of Israel for ever'? In Ezekiel 34:23,24, it says 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David;' So the prince is also the shepherd of Israel. And since Israel already has 'shepherds' (Ezek. 34:10), how can Judah be the shepherd of Israel? It makes no sense. Where is the logic in that! Unless, of course, you want to be blasphemous and suggest that Psalm 23:1 refers to Judah!

I read Ezekiel 37 more carefully as you bid, and my awareness was confirmed that the whole chapter is about a vision of Ezekiel about the "Dry Bones" which is a reference to the Jews in exile. When Ezekiel asked for an interpretation of the vision and the Lord said, "O mortal, these bones are the whole House of Israel. Judah and the Israelites associated with him as a single nation in the Land of Israel at the end of the exile. Now, it is your turn to read the whole chapter and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. BTW, there is no need even of outside interpretation as the interpretation is given by the Lord Himself in the text. Judah was promised by the Lord to be the Prince of Israel aka a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:13) No offense meant but, what makes no sense is to claim a dead man to be prince in Israel in fulfillment of the prophecy of the "Dry Bones." You must give a break to the gospel of Paul aka the NT and give a chance to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

 

[MJFlores]

Paul was never chosen to be an apostle of Jesus as the other were because Paul never even saw Jesus. He self-claimed to be an apostle but the Apostles of Jesus never acknowledged him an apostle. When Paul came to Jerusalem to apply to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, the Apostles of Jesus rejected him and said he could not even be a disciple. (Acts 9:26) Regarding being the Messiah, Jesus could not have been the one as an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever.
(Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Acts 9:3-9 New International Version (NIV)

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

Oh Acts was written by apostle Luke and if you read further you will find out of Saul who later was named Paul was commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ. In his letters to the Gentiles:

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

1 Corinthians 9:1
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?

2 Corinthians 12:11
I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.

You said:
The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever.
(Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Jeremiah 31:35-37 New International Version (NIV)

This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”
This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I read Ezekiel 37 more carefully as you bid, and my awareness was confirmed that the whole chapter is about a vision of Ezekiel about the "Dry Bones" which is a reference to the Jews in exile. When Ezekiel asked for an interpretation of the vision and the Lord said, "O mortal, these bones are the whole House of Israel. Judah and the Israelites associated with him as a single nation in the Land of Israel at the end of the exile. Now, it is your turn to read the whole chapter and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. BTW, there is no need even of outside interpretation as the interpretation is given by the Lord Himself in the text. Judah was promised by the Lord to be the Prince of Israel aka a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:13) No offense meant but, what makes no sense is to claim a dead man to be prince in Israel in fulfillment of the prophecy of the "Dry Bones." You must give a break to the gospel of Paul aka the NT and give a chance to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

I am now arguing my point without reference to the New Testament. The point is, Judah cannot be the prince of Israel. The prince of Israel is an individual; a king and a shepherd.

1 Kings 11:13 'Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.'

What does this mean? It means that God will tear away most of the kingdom (the ten tribes) (verse 31), leaving Judah (and Benjamin) as the one tribe, which will be given to Rehoboam (Solomon's son) for 'David my servant's sake' and for 'Jerusalem's sake'. In other words, Judah is saved because God has made eternal promises regarding both David and Jerusalem. The reasons are given in verse 34 and 36. For David's sake 'because he kept my commandments and statutes', and for Jerusalem's sake because it is the city 'I have chosen me to put my name there.'

Now let's look at Verse 36 more closely. It says, 'And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.' SO, the eternal light or lamp (Judah) is not the prince of Israel, as you suggest. The scripture clearly states that Judah is the eternal lamp for 'David my servant's sake'. 'David my servant' is distinguished from the 'light alway before me in Jerusalem'. The passage also makes a distinction between 'David my servant' and 'me' (God/Father in heaven).

So the logical conclusion must be that Judah (the tribe) is not the prince of Israel. Time to try again.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I am now arguing my point without reference to the New Testament. The point is, Judah cannot be the prince of Israel. The prince of Israel is an individual; a king and a shepherd. 1 Kings 11:13 'Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.' What does this mean? It means that God will tear away most of the kingdom (the ten tribes) (verse 31), leaving Judah (and Benjamin) as the one tribe, which will be given to Rehoboam (Solomon's son) for 'David my servant's sake' and for 'Jerusalem's sake'. In other words, Judah is saved because God has made eternal promises regarding both David and Jerusalem. The reasons are given in verse 34 and 36. For David's sake 'because he kept my commandments and statutes', and for Jerusalem's sake because it is the city 'I have chosen me to put my name there.' Now let's look at Verse 36 more closely. It says, 'And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.' SO, the eternal light or lamp (Judah) is not the prince of Israel, as you suggest. The scripture clearly states that Judah is the eternal lamp for 'David my servant's sake'. 'David my servant' is distinguished from the 'light alway before me in Jerusalem'. The passage also makes a distinction between 'David my servant' and 'me' (God/Father in heaven). So the logical conclusion must be that Judah (the tribe) is not the prince of Israel. Time to try again.

Rehoboam, the son of Solomon is dead. A dead man cannot be the prince of Israel. Now, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the prince of Israel aka the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka the Son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Prince aka the Messiah, is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever if you read Jeremiah 31:35-37. You are trying to revive the past. They are dead and they are to remain so in their eternal home of their world. (Psalm 49:12,20) I am talking about today when "Judah" is the Prince Messiah in the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:22)

 

[Redemptionsong]

To add evidence to the point just made, that Judah cannot be the prince of Israel, look at 2 Samuel 7:16. Nathan says to David, 'And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.'
Judah is not a king. Judah is not a throne. But Judah is a house, and it is potentially part of a kingdom.
This should convince you, Ben Avraham, that the prince of Israel is the king who sits upon the throne. His people are the house and kingdom. Judah is part of his kingdom, if the people prove obedient.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rehoboam, the son of Solomon is dead. A dead man cannot be the prince of Israel. Now, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the prince of Israel aka the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka the Son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Prince aka the Messiah, is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever if you read Jeremiah 31:35-37. You are trying to revive the past. They are dead and they are to remain so in their eternal home of their world. (Psalm 49:12,20) I am talking about today when "Judah" is the Prince Messiah in the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:22)

I agree, Rehoboam is dead. He is NOT the prince of Israel. The prince of Israel is a very specific reference to a specific INDIVIDUAL who is also the Lord's MESSIAH. The Messiah (Israel the individual) is the head of the body, the people Israel. Together, as one, they make ISRAEL. You cannot have the sheep without the shepherd! You cannot have a kingdom without the king!

If you think that Jews living in Israel today constitute the 'Prince Messiah' then I think you are greatly mistaken. Some may belong to his body but many do not.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Acts 9:3-9 New International Version (NIV) As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Paul simply had an attack of epilepsy. If you did not know, read the Catholic Encyclopedia. Epilepsy is also called the fall disease and, all the symptoms of Paul at that event confirm the fact that he was epileptic.

The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. Oh Acts was written by apostle Luke and if you read further you will find out of Saul who later was named Paul was commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ. In his letters to the Gentiles: Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

As you have confirmed above, like the other men who traveled with Paul, he also didn't see any thing. It was at that moment that he decided to change his mission and stop persecuting the Nazarenes from outside to do it from within. That's why he tried to join the Sect of the Nazarenes and was rejected by the Apostles. (Acts 9:26) Logically, he could not be trusted.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Corinthians 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.

This paragraph above means that many among Paul's own followers did not believe his self-claim to be an apostle. That's why Paul referred to the Apostles of Jesus in a joking manner as in "the super-apostles."

You said: The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.

Thank you. You have confirmed my views. Israel will cease to exist only when heaven and earth have passed away. You should be thankful also to Jesus for what he said in John 4:22, that salvation comes from the Jews. "From the Jews" he said, not from one among the Jews. And that answers for the collective concept of Messiah.[/quote]