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Featured Jesus Will Never Return

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ben Avraham, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    Show me the evidence that the New Covenant includes the Gentiles together with the Jews in one body. Jeremiah was quite clear that the New Covenant would be with the House of Israel and the House of Judah if you read Jeremiah 31:31. The only difference between the Old and the New Covenants is that the Old one was taught by the Priests, Prophets and Scribes. The New Covenant was organized by Ezra so that we all would have it written in our own hearts and it was available to us in our own mouth if you read Deuteronomy 30:11-14. Regarding the anointing of Jesus, it is a thing of the NT. Nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. I am of the firm belief that the gospels of the NT were written by Hellenists, some former disciples of Paul.




     
  2. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    That's not a good question. Paul was the founder of the Christian Church. That's what he did in Acts 11:26)

    Paul never persecuted a single Christian in his life. The Logic is that one would not found a Church to persecute the adepts. Paul used to persecute the Sect of the Nazarenes as he would go for them throughout Asia Minor especially Damascus. (Acts 9:1,2)

    Jesus himself gave order to his disciples never to go the way of the Gentiles when spreading the gospel of salvation.
    (Mat. 10:5,6) So, of course, I am aware that he had come for the lost Tribes of Israel and not for the Gentiles.

    Not only the Israelites but also all those from the Gentiles who have joined God's Covenant with His People Israel through conversion to Judaism according to Halacha aka Jewish law. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

    That's against the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Therefore, Hellenist doctrines; nothing Jewish.

    The last part of the paragraph above was a Hellenistic decision. Gentiles would be accepted all right but only through conversion to Judaism according to Halacha. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

    This assignment was upon Israel who was given as a light for the Gentiles. And it remains with the Jews as long as we remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

    The Law of Moses is the same as the Decalogue. That's the Law Jesus warned us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Only if you don't believe your scripture. In Isaiah 53 you have a full description of Christ's sufferings. Compare this chapter with the gospel accounts and you see the fulfilment.
    Verse 8: 'He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? [Note Matthew 1:1] for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    How do you explain Isaiah 53? It is unaffected by Jeremiah 31:35-37, which tells us that Israel will not cease as a nation. This is because a 'remnant' of Israel repent and come to accept what the Lord has done for them.



    Now you're trying to pin the very words of Jesus on to some anonymous 'Hellenist'. The only reason you call them Hellenists is that the New Testament was written in Greek and not Hebrew. But Hebrew is only for Israel in their land. For two thousand years they had no land!

    Jesus certainly did claim a link to the prophecies of the Tanach. Look at Matthew 12:38-40. This was Jesus speaking very clearly about an event that was soon to occur. 'So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'


    That's because he came to earth the first time as a Saviour to save, not as a King to Judge. He was anointed King but only took up the position after his ascension to heaven (Acts 1: 10,11). He came the first time upon an ***, not a horse.
    The confirmation is in Zechariah 9:9, 'Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.'


    Think about it, please. David their king cannot be a reference to Judah. A king is not a people, but a leader. The sheep are not the shepherd. Look at Zechariah 9:9. It makes a clear distinction between the daughter of Zion/daughter of Jerusalem and 'thy king'. How can they be the same thing?!

    The reason that Jesus can be considered the king of the living is that his spirit came from heaven. His spirit never died because, like David, 'the spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward'. Only during the dark hours of crucifixion, when he bore the sin of others, was the spirit of the Lord absent from his Son. (Psalm 22)
     
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    So Ben, do you really obey the Law of Moses?

    “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him.
    Leviticus 20:2



    But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” Deuteronomy 18:20
     
  5. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    How can a Jewish Ben say Paul is the founder of the Church? That would be like an Islamic Aahil would say that Eliezer Kaplan is the founder of the state of Israel.

    Further your topic is about Jesus will never return.
    My position is he will.
    He will not take you - you can be assured about that.

    He will take those who wait for him

    Jude 21 New International Version (NIV)

    keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    Well apparently it was the Sadducees who did not believe in any resurrection. Sadducees a member of a Jewish sect or party of the time of Jesus Christ that denied the resurrection of the dead, the existence of spirits, and the obligation of oral tradition, emphasizing acceptance of the written Law alone.

    upload_2017-5-15_15-32-56.jpeg
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 54:9-10 “For this is like the waters of Noah to me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah will no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. (10) For the mountains may depart, and the hills be removed; but my loving kindness will not depart from you, and my covenant of peace will not be removed,” says Yahweh who has mercy on you.

    Isaiah 34:3-4 Their slain will also be cast out, and the stench of their dead bodies will come up; and the mountains will melt in their blood. (4) All of the army of the sky will be dissolved. The sky will be rolled up like a scroll, and all its armies will fade away, as a leaf fades from off a vine or a fig tree.

    Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake before him, and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, yes, the world, and all who dwell in it.

    Micah 1:3-4 For, behold, Yahweh comes out of his place, and will come down and tread on the high places of the earth. (4) The mountains melt under him, and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like waters that are poured down a steep place.

    Ezekiel 38:19-22 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath I have spoken. Surely in that day there will be a great shaking in the land of Israel; (20) so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals of the field, all creeping things who creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the surface of the earth will shake at my presence. Then the mountains will be thrown down, the steep places will fall, and every wall will fall to the ground. (21) I will call for a sword against him to all my mountains,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. (22) I will enter into judgment with him with pestilence and with blood. I will rain on him, and on his hordes, and on the many peoples who are with him, an overflowing shower, with great hailstones, fire, and sulfur. :innocent:
     
  7. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    The early Christians believed that Jesus would return and that the end of times was to be in their lifetime.
    This was soon to be seen, that this was not to be so.
    So rather than disband the idea, it was pushed in to some unknown future time.
    Such prophesy and expectation is somewhat vague and more wishful thinking, than factual.
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Within Biblical prophecy there is specification of the 'Day of the Lord'; unfortunately different prophets used the keyword descriptor for different events...

    So for instance both Ezekiel 7, and Malachi 4 call the 2nd temple destruction time, the Day of the Lord's wrath...

    Thus anyone reading the prophecy back at Yeshua's time, could assume it was all going to happen in one go...

    Yet with a Bible word search to see all interlinking passages, we can see there are clear indications, that was only a start to everything that shall take place. :innocent:
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Do you accept that Israel needs a king (as Shepherd), that Israel has failed to live obediently under the old covenant, and that a new covenant has been proclaimed?

    Genesis 22:18, 'And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.'

    Psalm 22:27,'All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.'

    Psalm 86:9, 'All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O lord: and shall glorify thy name.'

    Isaiah 9:2. 'The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.'

    Isaiah 42:1, 'I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.'

    Isaiah 49:6, 'And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.'

    Isaiah 55:5, 'Behold thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.'

    Isaiah 60:3, 'And the Gentiles shall come to the light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.'

    Daniel 7:14, 'And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.'

    Hosea 2:23,'And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.'

    Malachi 1:11, 'For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, sayeth the LORD of hosts.'

    Ephesians 3:6, 'That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel;'
     
    #129 Redemptionsong, May 15, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  10. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Now I am lost again. I don't know whether I was insulted, tricked, agreed with, or contradicted.
     
  11. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    You were agreed with.
     
  12. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    No, we have already a Government by the Jews and for the Jews if you read Ezekiel 37:22.


    The new Israel aka all the Jews of today are from the seed of Abraham. Therefore and, indeed, all the nations of the earth are blessed to remain in existence.


    Here, the turning unto the Lord by the Gentiles must be through conversion according to Halacha. (Isaiah 56:1-8) Halacha means Jewish law.



    This is a reference of Prophet Isaiah to the Gentiles in the Galilee at the time of the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. The light shined upon them was about the return of the Jews back home. That's when Israel was assigned as a light unto the Gentiles.


    Daniel 7:14 is a reference to Psalm 78:67-70 when the Lord rejected the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as one only People aka Kingdom plus the Gentiles who have decided to join God's Covenant with His People according to Halacha aka Jewish law. (Isaiah 56:1-8)
     
    #132 Ben Avraham, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  13. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with you, Terry.
     
  14. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    I only worked on the words of Luke in Acts 11:26. Yes, the topic is about the never return of Jesus but, then some poster inserted the claim that Jesus had founded the Christian Church. As a Jew, Jesus would rather found a synagogue than a church. Jesus never had any thing to do with the Church of Paul. Eternal life! Only God enjoys eternal life. Man was born, therefore, he must die. Jesus was born and died. Neither Sadducees nor Pharisees believed in resurrection. They would not contradict the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach as it says that, once dead no one will ever return if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.
     
  15. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    Do you really believe in the Greek doctrine of the Demigod aka the son of a god with an earthly woman? That's what
    Mat. 1:18 teaches about Jesus.
     
  16. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    Now, please go back to Isaiah 53 and provide me with a reference to Jesus as the Suffering Servant. But before, take a look at Psalm 44:14-27. Then compare the individual in Isaiah 53 with the plural of Psalm 44:14-27. One is the explanation to the other. To complete the info, you can read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son", said the Lord. Israel, the People is My Son. The collective is in the individual.
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 1:18 New International Version (NIV)

    This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

    That is what it says.

    I believe Jesus the Messiah is a Man not God and not even a demigod. (John 8:40-45)
    God is one and he is the Father. (John 17:1-3 Mal 2:10)
    The Holy Spirit was sent so the Holy Spirit is not God. John 14:26

    The Holy Spirit is even recorded in the Old Testament Bible:

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    Isaiah 63:10
    Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

    Isaiah 63:11
    Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
     
  18. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    The point is that, before Mary had sex with Joseph, she was pregnant by another. Since she was Jewish, she could not have got pregnant by God; since this happened only among the Greeks. That's why the Jews who had grown up with Jesus thought he had been conceived through fornication with someone else if you read John 8:41.
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Let's read Ezekiel 37:22. It says this, 'And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:'

    So, the children of Israel will be one nation in the land of Israel. And one king will be king to them all.
    Now, tell me, who is this king that is king to them all?

    Verse 24 tells us that it is 'David my servant' that will be king over them all. And it continues, 'they all shall have one shepherd:'.

    This passage is clearly stating that the king who will reign over the one nation will be 'David my servant.'
    This tells me that the one king and servant is also the one shepherd. Do you agree? Do you also agree that the nation is not the shepherd?
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Oh really? Israel (the Jews) were assigned as a light unto the Gentiles on their return from the Babylonian exile? That doesn't fit with history at all.

    You conveniently overlooked the following words; 'that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.' What kind of salvation has the Jewish diaspora ever brought to the Gentiles? Jews have suffered persecution at the hands of Gentile populations. It's true Christians (Jew and Gentile) who have spread light throughout the Gentile world. And that light is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    This passage clearly refers to Christ as the light to the Gentiles. Only his salvation extends to the end of the earth!

    Isaiah 49:6, 'And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.'
     
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