1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus was originally baptised a Jew, then rebaptised a Christian?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by pgd, Jan 22, 2005.

  1. pgd

    pgd Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Ratings:
    +1
    Was Jesus baptised twice, once by Judaism, a second time by Christians?

    Other?
     
  2. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,748
    Ratings:
    +167
    Most definitions of Christians include that belief in Jesus' death for other people's sins is a must. So, there were no Christians around when (and if) he lived.
     
  3. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    What are you talking about? Jews don't baptize.
     
  4. Isis-Astoroth

    Isis-Astoroth Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +19
    Christianity was created after Jesus's death. There is no possible way he could have been baptised a Christian.
     
  5. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,615
    Ratings:
    +247
    Others have already daid what I was about to . :) 1: As far as I know , Jews don't Baptize . 2: There were no " Christians " at the time .

    Like it or not Jesus , the man at lest , was Jewish . He was born Jewish . He was tried as a Jew , under Jewish law . And it wasn't until after his dead that his message was taken to non-Jews .
     
  6. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    494
    Ratings:
    +67
    Hmm...I've never heard of Jews baptizing, but what about John the Baptist? He certainly wasn't "Christian" at the time he was baptizing, since that category didn't exist.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Matthew 3:
    [13] Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
    [14] John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
    [15] But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented.
    [16] And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
    [17] and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


    Jesus was baptized.... I thought Jews did not baptize?

    Matthew 6:9-15
    [9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
    Hallowed be thy name.
    [10] Thy
    kingdom come.
    Thy will be done,
    On earth as it is in heaven.
    [11] Give us this day our daily bread;
    [12] And forgive us our debts,
    As we also have forgiven our debtors;
    [13] And lead us not into temptation,
    But deliver us from evil.
    [14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
    [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


    This is a Jewish prayer?

    John 3:
    [22] After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.
    [23] John also was baptizing at Ae'non near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized.

    I thought there were no Christians until after Jesus' death? Were they baptizing people in some odd, unknown Jewish custom?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +151
    Well, if it was a Jew writing it, then I suppose, yes, it was, but it's one Christians, not Jews, say, so I really don't think you'd call it a Jewish prayer.

    And baptism may have been something a Jewish sect was doing (come to think of it, that's kinda what Christianity was in the beginning), but it's never been a widespread Jewish tradition, no. Why should it? For the most part, you're just born Jewish.
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    I think you missed my point.... this was mainly in reply to kreeden.
    I guess with the exception of that "minor" detail for the males.... snip snip:eek:

    Scott
     
  10. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,615
    Ratings:
    +247
    No , John the Baptist wasn't Christian neither . :)

    The thing is Lintu , is that both John and Jesus where preaching to their people , the Jewish people . Neither were trying to convert other nations during their lives . Jesus took his message too God's Chosen , the Jews , first . He never claimed to be anything other then Jewish . It wasn't untill after his death , at Pentecost , that the Holy Spirit came to his followers and they took his message to the other people of the world .

    The New Testement even says that Jesus fullfilled the " old covenant ", and started a new one . { circumized in Spirit , not flesh } .

    I guess that it comes down to defining when an idea starts . But there are those who believe that the story of the Greek woman { Mark 7 : 24 - 30 } implies that Jesus came for the Jewish people , and his followers took his message to the rest of us afterwards . Actually there are many parts of the gospel that appears to imply that .
     
  11. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,615
    Ratings:
    +247
    Scott , I hoipe that the above post explains where I'm coming from . :) Baptism isn't a Jewish tradation , no . But as I said , Jesus was still fullfilly an old covenant , as I see it . John just kinda set things up for him .

    The Lords Prayer is just that . I realize that Catholics place a lot in the tradition of saying it word for word , and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion . But as I see it , it is more of an excample of how one should pray . Thereforth neither Jewish nor Christian really .

    And perhaps I should explain that in the story about the Greek woman , some believe that the " children " refers to the Jewish people , and the " dogs " to the rest of mankind . Although Jesus came for his People , all People benefit .
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    I understand what you mean kreeden.... I just have a hard time with that easy definition of Jesus as a Jew..... yes he was, but not in the sense that Judaism is today or ever was or will be.
    Luke 6:5 And he said to them, "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath."
    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world."
    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again

    My point is, that calling him Jewish is only half the story.... ask some of our Jewish members here what would happen to them if they said things like this..... do you think they'd be welcome in the Temple any more? NOT!

    Just wanted to clarify that.
    Scott
     
  13. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,615
    Ratings:
    +247
    I agree . :) The is why I said " the man , at lest " in an earier post . Although the " man " was Jewish , .... well , there is more to it then that . I just think that it is important to take into account the full story and so many ... well , I doubt then Jesus was the blonde haired , blue eyed man he so often is picture as , although I could be wrong .
     
  14. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    11,771
    Ratings:
    +1,149
    This thread brings up an imporant point though....not directly ironically but just the same. Many Christians and non-Christians seem to feel Judism is like a 1/2 Christianty when in fact Judism shares more commonality from what I see with the Islamic tradition. I am not saying that Jews and Christians don't have overlap in belief but the way they both regard the Jewish Torah and the Christian OT and how they practice their beliefs are both distinct.
     
  15. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    11,771
    Ratings:
    +1,149
    kreeden your avatar is making me dizzy
     
  16. Nubialy

    Nubialy New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +8
    I found this to be a very interesting question, I hope I contribute to a deeper understanding of the subject.


    John’s Baptism. The first human authorized by God to perform water baptism was John the son of Zechariah and Elizabeth. (Lu 1:5-7




    5 In the days of Herod, king of Ju·de´a, there happened to be a certain priest named Zech·a·ri´ah of the division of A·bi´jah, and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They both were righteous before God because of walking blamelessly in accord with all the commandments and legal requirements of Jehovah. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they both were well along in years.

    57​

    The time now became due for Elizabeth to give birth, and she became mother to a son

    The very fact that he was known as "John the Baptist" or "the baptizer" (Mt 3:1; Mr 1:4) implies that baptism or water immersion came to the attention of the people especially through John, and the Scriptures prove that his ministry and baptism came from God; they were not of John’s origin. His works were foretold by the angel Gabriel as from God (Lu 1:13-17​

    13 However, the angel said to him: "Have no fear, Zech·a·ri´ah, because your supplication has been favorably heard, and your wife Elizabeth will become mother to a son to you, and you are to call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth; 15 for he will be great before Jehovah. But he must drink no wine and strong drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb; 16 and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go before him with E·li´jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people."

    and Zechariah prophesied by holy spirit that John would be a prophet of the Most High to make Jehovah’s ways ready. (Lu 1:68-79​

    68 "Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he, through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, has spoken 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us; 72 to perform the mercy in connection with our forefathers and to call to mind his holy covenant, 73 the oath that he swore to Abraham our forefather, 74 to grant us, after we have been rescued from the hands of enemies, the privilege of fearlessly rendering sacred service to him 75 with loyalty and righteousness before him all our days. 76 But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go in advance before Jehovah to make his ways ready, 77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, 78 because of the tender compassion of our God. With this [compassion] a daybreak will visit us from on high, 79 to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow, to direct our feet prosperously in the way of peace."

    ) Jesus confirmed that John’s ministry and baptism were from God. (Lu 7:26-28)​

    26 Really, then, what did YOU go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell YOU, and far more than a prophet. 27 This is he concerning whom it is written, ‘Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way ahead of you.’ 28 I tell YOU, Among those born of women there is none greater than John; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.

    The disciple Luke records that "God’s declaration came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. So he came . . . preaching baptism." (Lu 3:2, 3) The apostle John states of him: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John."—Joh 1:6.​

    Further understanding of the meaning of John’s baptism is gained by comparing various translations of Luke 3:3. John came "preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins" (NW); "baptism conditioned on repentance" (CB); "baptism whereby men repented, to have their sins forgiven" (Kx); "baptism in token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (NE); "Turn away from your sins and be baptized, and God will forgive your sins" (TEV). These renderings make plain that the baptism did not wash away their sins, but the repentance and changing of their ways did, and of this, baptism was a symbol.



    Jesus’ Baptism in Water. The baptism of Jesus himself as performed by John must of necessity have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John’s baptism, as Jesus "committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1Pe 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus. But Jesus said: "Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous."—Mt 3:13-15.




    Luke states that Jesus was praying at the time of his baptism. (Lu 3:21) Further, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says that when Jesus Christ came "into the world" (that is, not when he was born and could not read and say these words, but when he presented himself for baptism and began his ministry) he was saying, in accord with Psalm 40:6-8 (LXX): "Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. . . . Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God." (Heb 10:5-9) Jesus was by birth a member of the Jewish nation, which nation was in a national covenant with God, namely, the Law covenant. (Ex 19:5-8; Ga 4:4) Jesus, by reason of this fact, was therefore already in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God when he thus presented himself to John for baptism. Jesus was there doing something more than what was required of him under the Law. He was presenting himself to his Father Jehovah to do his Father’s "will" with reference to the offering of his own "prepared" body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law. The apostle Paul comments: "By the said ‘will’ we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time." (Heb 10:10) The Father’s will for Jesus also involved activity in connection with the Kingdom, and for this service too Jesus presented himself. (Lu 4:43; 17:20, 21) Jehovah accepted and acknowledged this presentation of his Son, anointing him with holy spirit and saying: "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you."—Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21-23; Mt 3:13-17.

     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Well.... it didn't help me..... try a new color..... I could hardly read the thing.... but, I'm wierd like that!

    Welcome to Religious Forums, by the way!
     
  18. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,615
    Ratings:
    +247
    Well , there may be a reason for that as I was basing a part of my arguement upon my understanding of the JW beliefs . ;)



    robtex " kreeden your avatar is making me dizzy "


    Cool . It's working . You will now do as I say and deposit all of your money into my bank account .... ;)
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Well there were many different sects of judaism at the time, what would become christianity was just one of them. It could be that "baptism" was something the practiced for ritual cleansing, like a lot of orthodox jews do in mikvahs today.
     
  20. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    At the moment, I curse the poverty of libraries in the area I currently reside, and want even further to get out.

    I believe the Qumran community did practise baptism. However, I don't own any books on it. I'd always relied on books either in the library where I was at or interlibrary loan. I could well be wrong here.
     
Loading...