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Jesus was NOT a capitalist

Was Jesus in favor of monetary gain?

  • He taught a gainful life

    Votes: 6 20.7%
  • He taught a life of abstinence

    Votes: 23 79.3%

  • Total voters
    29

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
let's go for it
use His own words if you can


The parable of the talents shows that he valued working and taking risks to increase your wealth--which is a pretty good definition of primitive capitalism. Capitalism promotes a rising economy which benefits us all. "A rising tide lifts all boats"--JFK

And yes, he and his early followers encouraged the poor (not poverty). He had wealthy followers (e.g. Lazarus, Joseph of Arimathea, the rich young man). But the biggest mistake people make about Jesus as presented in the Bible, is taking what he said about the poor and voluntary charity, and morphing that into a government mandated & controlled redistribution of wealth--which mostly enriches the politicians, and encourages sloth.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But the biggest mistake people make about Jesus as presented in the Bible, is taking what he said about the poor and voluntary charity, and morphing that into a government mandated & controlled redistribution of wealth--which mostly enriches the politicians, and encourages sloth.

You seem to be making a distinction between what you see as "voluntary" versus what you see as "government mandated." But strictly speaking, under a democratic form of government which supposedly reflects the will of the people, everything is voluntary.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The parable of the talents shows that he valued working and taking risks to increase your wealth--which is a pretty good definition of primitive capitalism. Capitalism promotes a rising economy which benefits us all. "A rising tide lifts all boats"--JFK

And yes, he and his early followers encouraged the poor (not poverty). He had wealthy followers (e.g. Lazarus, Joseph of Arimathea, the rich young man). But the biggest mistake people make about Jesus as presented in the Bible, is taking what he said about the poor and voluntary charity, and morphing that into a government mandated & controlled redistribution of wealth--which mostly enriches the politicians, and encourages sloth.
was it not the rich young man that went away....unhappy
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
you seem suspicious of capitalism......

not unwarranted

Perhaps it may be due to the fact that capitalism relies solely upon the suckers out there who are hoodwinked by the disingenuous, manipulative arguments put forth by capitalists and their ideologues. The capitalist creed is "there's a sucker born every minute." An economic system which openly depends on the widespread existence of "suckers" is one to be suspicious and wary of.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Perhaps it may be due to the fact that capitalism relies solely upon the suckers out there who are hoodwinked by the disingenuous, manipulative arguments put forth by capitalists and their ideologues. The capitalist creed is "there's a sucker born every minute." An economic system which openly depends on the widespread existence of "suckers" is one to be suspicious and wary of.
and other economic systems are straightforward.....honest.....serving the multitude, faithfully?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And what an end it was!!
Except it never got past 1st base as "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Even though Marx hoped that the process would be democratic in nature, it got subverted by those who used it as a process to consolidate power through revolution and attacking other states, which he did advocate if the democratic process didn't work.

Didn't the first pilgrims try it also and it was a flop?
I believe you're thinking of Jamestown Colony, which eventually abandoned it because it became too difficult to manage as the society grew in numbers.

The latter point to me is interesting as I read an article a couple of days ago dealing with Catholic social teaching on this from their Catechism, and it says that a full sharing of resources is the ideal, modeled after what Acts says the apostles did that was a reflection of what Jesus taught, but that it cannot be done that way because it's too unwieldy. Therefore, the more viable alternative are forms of taxation and charity to create a more equal society. Even though it's not specifically mentioned in the Catechism, having a guaranteed minimum wage is considered by many Catholic theologians to be the best course under the circumstances, as long as it's matched with incentives to both create jobs on one end and to get such jobs at the other end.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
9 And Jesus said to him, Today is [Messianic and spiritual] salvation come to [all the members of] this household, since Zacchaeus too is a [real spiritual] son of Abraham;

Interestingly, Jesus never told him to sell everything he had.
But that wasn't the point he was making. It's like saying he didn't say not to go and murder people named "Ken", therefore murdering you is all fine and dandy. :glomp2:
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
This is not how "socialism" is defined. It only dictates that the community as a whole controls the means of production, distribution, and exchange. Socialism has never been actualized purely. It has always been poisoned by violence and corruption.

so·cial·ism
ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
  1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

How it is defined academically and how it actually operates in reality are two different things. The latter being a little more relevant!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I believe you're thinking of Jamestown Colony, which eventually abandoned it because it became too difficult to manage as the society grew in numbers.
Hmmm... I memory serves me correctly, I thought I read that the problem was that there were those who worked harder than others and eventually decided that why work as hard if those who work less get the same benefits. (over simplified explanation but the basic are there).\

Although the site I am quoting isn't the best of sites, it does express what I had read previously.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2120669/posts

Proprietorship makes a difference. A cornerstone for capitalism.

The latter point to me is interesting as I read an article a couple of days ago dealing with Catholic social teaching on this from their Catechism, and it says that a full sharing of resources is the ideal, modeled after what Acts says the apostles did that was a reflection of what Jesus taught, but that it cannot be done that way because it's too unwieldy. Therefore, the more viable alternative are forms of taxation and charity to create a more equal society. Even though it's not specifically mentioned in the Catechism, having a guaranteed minimum wage is considered by many Catholic theologians to be the best course under the circumstances, as long as it's matched with incentives to both create jobs on one end and to get such jobs at the other end.
Yes, I think minimum wages is good as long as there are incentives to move forward.

Does it seem to you that $15/hour minimum provides no incentive to move forward? I know the amount is subjective (not to mention the fact that $15/hr is different in Farmsville, IO than NYC, NY.)

Personally, I thought $15 was overkill
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But that wasn't the point he was making. It's like saying he didn't say not to go and murder people named "Ken", therefore murdering you is all fine and dandy. :glomp2:
LOL... I'm not sure that translates.

I think the better fit is to look at the heart. One couldn't part with the money (hoarder), one considered the poor (a bedrock of faith living.

It seems it fits better than always "sell all" and give it all away and now not be in a position to create jobs because now you have no capacity (Capital--Capitalism) to do it with.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
You seem to be making a distinction between what you see as "voluntary" versus what you see as "government mandated." But strictly speaking, under a democratic form of government which supposedly reflects the will of the people, everything is voluntary.

Yours is a common misconception brought about by the constant onslaught of academic, political and religious demagoguery. No government can override individual rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense--unless those rights are abrogated when one violates the rights of others. Does the will of the people justify include slavery, genocide etc.

I'm sure you will ask, then how do we tax in order to support valid government business? Limit taxation to tariffs and a consumption tax--and, of course, limit the damn size of government. Those can be avoided by not participating in the market. The intrusiveness and outright theft of the income tax is the most egregious. And, you may also wonder why we don't have a wealth tax. The property is essentially a wealth tax, forcing us to rent the real estate we "own". But the super wealthy have determined the tax structure: there are laws to side-step capital gains taxes, there is no wealth tax, and the progressive income tax keeps a lid on the up and coming competition--with there being loop holes in that incomprehensible tax code as well.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
and other economic systems are straightforward.....honest.....serving the multitude, faithfully?

Well, I never said that. I just think that we need to keep a more wary eye on the system we currently have. Even Greenspan admitted that deregulation of banks was a mistake and that he put too much trust in them.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yours is a common misconception brought about by the constant onslaught of academic, political and religious demagoguery. No government can override individual rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense--unless those rights are abrogated when one violates the rights of others. Does the will of the people justify include slavery, genocide etc.

Of course not, but the government did do those things. But my point was that the distinction you're making between "voluntary" and "government mandated" is artificial and doesn't reflect the actual choices people have to make in real life.

Since you brought up the issues of slavery and genocide, it should be noted that the government was far more accommodating towards the business community and private sector investors in allowing slavery and genocide to take place. Our expansionist policies took in vast lands and resources which made many capitalists quite wealthy, as they had a business-friendly government with a modern, well-trained army ready to do their bidding.

I'm sure you will ask, then how do we tax in order to support valid government business? Limit taxation to tariffs and a consumption tax--and, of course, limit the damn size of government. Those can be avoided by not participating in the market. The intrusiveness and outright theft of the income tax is the most egregious. And, you may also wonder why we don't have a wealth tax. The property is essentially a wealth tax, forcing us to rent the real estate we "own". But the super wealthy have determined the tax structure: there are laws to side-step capital gains taxes, there is no wealth tax, and the progressive income tax keeps a lid on the up and coming competition--with there being loop holes in that incomprehensible tax code as well.

Well, you make a good point about the incomprehensible tax code.

I also agree that government could and should be made more efficient and less wasteful. We could probably save a lot of money and limit the size of government in various ways.

As for what constitutes "valid government business," that's a philosophical decision which largely rests on what the people's idea of what America actually is and what our purpose in the world should be. There seems to be rather sharp differences of opinion on the matter which has somewhat hampered the political system of late.

I suppose I'm like most Americans in that I accept that death and taxes are two things you can't really get around. Income taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, gas taxes - along with various fees which are just as bad as taxes. At least compared to other countries, I guess it's not quite so bad here. I'll admit it could better, but it could also be worse. At least, as far as things I would complain about regarding the government, taxes seems like a relatively minor complaint in this day and age.

What I could never understand is that it often seems as if the loudest voices complaining about taxes are usually those of the well-off and wealthy. Even if they're taxed, they still invariably end up with more money than most everyone else, so what are they complaining about?

I remember an argument with some guy who was lamenting the plight of a couple earning $250,000 per year and having to pay $100k of that to the government, leaving them with $150,000 free and clear. For most Americans who don't earn that much, that would be more than enough. For people around the world who earn a tiny fraction of what even the lowest paid Americans earn, it would be a lifetime of wealth.

And yet, these people still complain that they don't have enough, that the government is taking too much from them. Maybe it's the principle of the thing, and they might have a point there. But really, is it that much of a hardship? Is anyone in danger of going homeless or starving due to taxes? I don't think so.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Well, I never said that. I just think that we need to keep a more wary eye on the system we currently have. Even Greenspan admitted that deregulation of banks was a mistake and that he put too much trust in them.
yep....saw the speech

you think maybe...Judas was a banker?
he held the money bag

and the Carpenter may have trusted him at some point
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
was it not the rich young man that went away....unhappy

The rich young man was just the one case as opposed to the other examples, to which I should have added Mary Magdalene who financed a lot of Jesus' operations. And Jesus told him to give it away, not that it should be taken (stolen) from him--which aligns him on the side of capitalism, not socialism.

Beyond that, Jesus (as it's reported) was wrong anyway. Wealth is a tool which can and often is handled honorably. The old Maimonides quote about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him one would have had a perfect in the N/T. Wealth that isn't hidden in a tree or under a mattress, puts many people to work--which brings to mind the parable of the talents which you didn't address, and was the strongest of the two examples supporting the fact that the biblical Jesus was a primitive capitalist.
 
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