Jesus was a Jew. When did his followers stop being Jews?

[leibowde84]

Galatians 3:28
…27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.…

This doesn't answer the question. It appears as if it does on first glance, but Paul was differentiating between Jews and Gentiles, not Jews and Christians. And, in actuality, they were still either slave or free, male or female, etc. Paul was saying that you don't have to be a Jew to follow Christ. He was in no way saying that Jews were no longer Jews at that point.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

Jesus' followers stopped being Jews when they began following a heretic instead of the Law and traditions passed down by the Lord their God - to simplify. So, no. Christians aren't Jews. They're a subset of the Jewish faith; initially a cult that sprang into a global religious movement thanks to many opportunistic moments in History.

 

[Akivah]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

Why would they want to? Many sections of their bible are devoted to saying how bad the Jews are. Would Christians want to refer to themselves as a synagogue of Satan or children of the devil?

 

[Hawkins]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

It is superficial to comprehend the term "Jew" from a bloodline perspective. Jew defines the scope of humans under a specific covenant. They are under the Mosaic Law, and they are defined as 'Jew' even before Moses in terms of the ritual process of being circumcised. Usually this is on the 8th day of a Jew's birth. Later circumcision is accepted for a Jew of bloodline or a gentile convert.

Genesis 17:14 (NIV2011)
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

The critical part of a covenant is its power of salvation. That is to say, you need a religion only when salvation exists. If it's not because of salvation you don't need a religion, religion is optional to you. If you believe that salvation matters, then you need to observe the Mosaic Law if you are a Jew. By not observing Mosaic Law to a predefined extent, you will lose your status of a "Jew" in terms of the covenant disregarding whether you are a Jew of bloodline. That's the meaning of being "cut off from his people". You are now a gentile making no difference from those ethnically not of Jews.

Today's Jews are actually the gentiles as few of them can abide by the Mosaic Law. They thus set their hope on that salvation never matters that Judaism is an optional religion. To put it another way, if salvation matters they are likely not qualified to be saved, though I won't deny that God may have preserved a special way for those Jews who have tried their best to observe the Law though failed.

Jesus' job is to introduce a New Covenant by His own blood. This is under the circumstance that salvation matters. If salvation matters, just as explained above, no one can be saved. The gentiles won't be saved, and today's Jews may fail too. So for any humans (disregarding whether they are Jews or gentiles) to be saved, a New Covenant is thus needed. After this New Covenant being put in place, those who putting faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. That is to say,

In the case that salvation matters,

Judaism won't save as no one actually abide by the Mosaic Law, not even today's Jews
Christianity saves as there are up to 1/3 humans ever putting their faith in Christ.

 

[viole]

Genesis 17:14 (NIV2011)
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Apart from the obsession of cutting off things, I wonder whether the authors of the Bible were paid proportionally to the amount of words they used.

Are you aware of uncircumcised males that are circumcised in the flesh?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hawkins]

Apart from the obsession of cutting off things, I wonder whether the authors of the Bible were paid proportionally to the amount of words they used.

Are you aware of uncircumcised males that are circumcised in the flesh?

Ciao

- viole

That may regard to how ancient Jews using ancient Hebrew. Today's translation may be redundant in order not to lose any possible meaning embedded.

 

[Rival]

It is superficial to comprehend the term "Jew" from a bloodline perspective. Jew defines the scope of humans under a specific covenant. They are under the Mosaic Law, and they are defined as 'Jew' even before Moses in terms of the ritual process of being circumcised. Usually this is on the 8th day of a Jew's birth. Later circumcision is accepted for a Jew of bloodline or a gentile convert.

Genesis 17:14 (NIV2011)
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

The critical part of a covenant is its power of salvation. That is to say, you need a religion only when salvation exists. If it's not because of salvation you don't need a religion, religion is optional to you. If you believe that salvation matters, then you need to observe the Mosaic Law if you are a Jew. By not observing Mosaic Law to a predefined extent, you will lose your status of a "Jew" in terms of the covenant disregarding whether you are a Jew of bloodline. That's the meaning of being "cut off from his people". You are now a gentile making no difference from those ethnically not of Jews.

Today's Jews are actually the gentiles as few of them can abide by the Mosaic Law. They thus set their hope on that salvation never matters that Judaism is an optional religion. To put it another way, if salvation matters they are likely not qualified to be saved, though I won't deny that God may have preserved a special way for those Jews who have tried their best to observe the Law though failed.

Jesus' job is to introduce a New Covenant by His own blood. This is under the circumstance matters. If salvation matters, just as explained above, no one can be saved. The gentiles won't be saved, and today's Jews may fail too. So for any humans (disregarding whether they are Jews or gentiles) to be saved, a New Covenant is thus needed. After this New Covenant was put in place, those who putting faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. That is to say,

In the case that salvation matters,

Judaism won't save as no one actually abide by the Mosaic Law, not even today's Jews
Christianity saves as there are up to 1/3 humans ever putting their faith in Christ.

^^ Mostly nonsense.

 

[Hawkins]

^^ Mostly nonsense.

Thank you for your bold assertion!

 

[Rival]

The critical part of a covenant is its power of salvation. That is to say, you need a religion only when salvation exists. If it's not because of salvation you don't need a religion, religion is optional to you. If you believe that salvation matters, then you need to observe the Mosaic Law if you are a Jew. By not observing Mosaic Law to a predefined extent, you will lose your status of a "Jew" in terms of the covenant disregarding whether you are a Jew of bloodline. That's the meaning of being "cut off from his people". You are now a gentile making no difference from those ethnically not of Jews.

Salvation is a different concept in Judaism than in Christianity. No-one needs to be saved from sin or from damnation. One doesn't need to be a Jew or even religious in order to enter Heaven. A Noachide like me, or a moral atheist, can enter into paradise by being good.

Those who are born into or convert to Judaism cannot lose their status as Jews. It is an eternal covenant. They will just be sinful Jews if they do not follow Torah.

Today's Jews are actually the gentiles as few of them can abide by the Mosaic Law. They thus set their hope on that salvation never matters that Judaism is an optional religion. To put it another way, if salvation matters they are likely not qualified to be saved, though I won't deny that God may have preserved a special way for those Jews who have tried their best to observe the Law though failed.

It is totally possible to follow the Law. G-d doesn't give a Law he knows no-one can follow. That would be cruel and insane. Also, as I said before, one's status as Jew cannot be lost.

Again, these ideas of ''salvation' and 'saved' are simply not the same in Judaism as in Christianity.

Jesus' job is to introduce a New Covenant by His own blood. This is under the circumstance that salvation matters. If salvation matters, just as explained above, no one can be saved. The gentiles won't be saved, and today's Jews may fail too. So for any humans (disregarding whether they are Jews or gentiles) to be saved, a New Covenant is thus needed. After this New Covenant being put in place, those who putting faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. That is to say,

In the end, everyone will enter heaven. No need for Jeebus. The Jews have the Mosaic Covenant, the goyim have the Noachide Covenant. Simple.

In the case that salvation matters,

Judaism won't save as no one actually abide by the Mosaic Law, not even today's Jews
Christianity saves as there are up to 1/3 humans ever putting their faith in Christ.

There are hundreds of thousands of Jews who abide by the Torah every single day of their lives. Stop spouting this nonsense.

Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia
Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia
Modern Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[rosends]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

Abraham Lincoln Quotes

 

[Hawkins]

Salvation is a different concept in Judaism than in Christianity. No-one needs to be saved from sin or from damnation. One doesn't need to be a Jew or even religious in order to enter Heaven. A Noachide like me, or a moral atheist, can enter into paradise by being good.

Those who are born into or convert to Judaism cannot lose their status as Jews. It is an eternal covenant. They will just be sinful Jews if they do not follow Torah.

It is totally possible to follow the Law. G-d doesn't give a Law he knows no-one can follow. That would be cruel and insane. Also, as I said before, one's status as Jew cannot be lost.

Again, these ideas of ''salvation' and 'saved' are simply not the same in Judaism as in Christianity.

In the end, everyone will enter heaven. No need for Jeebus. The Jews have the Mosaic Covenant, the goyim have the Noachide Covenant. Simple.

There are hundreds of thousands of Jews who abide by the Torah every single day of their lives. Stop spouting this nonsense.

Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia
Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia
Modern Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia

Forget about today's Judaism. It's a remake which is totally different from the Judaism back in Jesus time! Read Josephus works to get a clue!

 

[Rival]

Forget about today's Judaism. It's a remake which is totally different from the Judaism back in Jesus time! Read Josephus works to get a clue!

Tanach, Oral Torah = Judaism
Josephus ≠ Judaism.

 

[Hawkins]

Torah, Oral Torah = Judaism
Josephus ≠ Judaism.

No, Judaism back in Jesus time is a set of concepts Pharisaic in nature. It's not just about Torah, but at least the Law and Prophets. Oral Law on the other hand is ORAL but enforced legitimately.

Today's Judaism is a total remake by a group of rabbis appeared at least 200 years after the Jerusalem siege.

 

[Rival]

No, Judaism back in Jesus time is a set of concepts Pharisaic in nature. It's not just about Torah, but at least the Law and Prophets. Oral Law on the other hand is ORAL but enforced legitimately.

Oral Torah was given to Moshe at Sinai.

Yes, it also includes the writings and the prophets. We were talking about Laws though.

 

[Hawkins]

Oral Torah was given to Moshe at Sinai.

Yes, it also includes the writings and the prophets. We were talking about Laws though.

It's a matter of how the Jewish books to be interpreted. Back in Jesus time, it is comprehended based off a set of Pharisaic concepts. Today the books are comprehended very differently as a different set of basic concepts are adapted.

Basic Pharisaic concepts include but not limited to:
Soul is immortal
Hell is a physical place holding the souls of the dead
Predestination exists but harmonized with man's freewill (while the Essenes believed in absolute predestination)

The salvation concept is mostly affected with or without these concepts in place.

 

[Rival]

It's a matter of how the Jewish books to be interpreted. Back in Jesus time, it is comprehended based off a set of Pharisaic concepts. Today the books are comprehended very differently as a different set of basic concepts are adapted.

Basic Pharisaic concepts include but not limited to:
Soul is immortal
Hell is a physical place holding the souls of the dead
Predestination exists but harmonized with man's freewill (while the Essenes believed in absolute predestination)

The salvation concept is mostly affected with or without these concepts in place.

Uh, modern Judaism is Pharisaic Judaism. Of course things may adapt over time as cultures change, but the core, Law and Doctrine remain. Not sure what your problem is?

 

[Hawkins]

Uh, modern Judaism is Pharisaic Judaism. Of course things may adapt over time as cultures change, but the core, Law and Doctrine remain. Not sure what your problem is?

No, most Jews I talked to don't even believe in immortal souls or hell. The Talmud may have some writings from some of Pharisees though. If the immortal soul and hell concepts are different, the salvation concept will thus be different.

 

[Nakosis]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

Jesus was a Jew like I am an American. He was from Judea. I suspect Jesus was anti religious. He didn't seem fond of the contemporary religions. In any case Paul is more the founder of contempory Christianity than Jesus. Being a Jew then was more a tribal identity than a religious one.

 

[Rival]

No, most Jews I talked to don't even believe in immortal souls or hell. The Talmud may have some writings from some of Pharisees though.

You are misinformed. Immortal Soul and temporary hell are core doctrines. If they say there is no hell, they are most likely referring to the xian and Muslim concept.

The Concept of Immortality

"No matter how the basic principles were reduced or revised, immortality remained a major tenet of Judaism."

 

[Hawkins]

You are misinformed. Immortal Soul and temporary hell are core doctrines. If they say there is no hell, they are most likely referring to the xian and Muslim concept.

The Concept of Immortality

"No matter how the basic principles were reduced or revised, immortality remained a major tenet of Judaism."

I think rather you are misinformed. I already asked you to take a look at the original Jewish concept (Josephus version at least). Your information is very deceptive in nature. The Jews I contacted explained immortality and hell very differently (I perceive deception as well).

1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined


The Works of Flavius Josephus.


Josephus' concept is close to it. However it may not be exactly as Josephus is never a Pharisee having a seat in the Sanhedrin.