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Featured Jesus vs the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Mar 10, 2019.

?

New testament representative of Jesus?

This poll will close on Jun 18, 2019 at 1:13 PM.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    13.3%
  3. Somewhat, more representative

    13.3%
  4. Somewhat, less representative

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Really? John was Jesus' favorite disciple. He gave us the Gospel according
    to John, some letters and the book of Revelations.
    You can see the similarities with the account of John in the Gospel and the
    man in the letters.
    Matthew was a govt official. He wrote in shorthand style of govt documentation.
    Luke apparently never met Jesus. He compiled a lot of material, much from
    primary sources I would say, to create his Gospel. He was with Paul on his
    last journey to Rome. He wrote the book of Acts.
     
  2. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Saying something "didn't appear in history" simply means that the oldest
    manuscripts go back that far. You can't expect parchment or papyrus to
    last long - even ten or twenty years would have worn them out.
    They were anonymous in the sense the authors didn't add their name.
    That is to be expected. But the Gospels were widely credited with being
    from those sources.
    Paul quotes the Gospels.
    We have, what, seven authors who wrote of Jesus. If that is not evidence
    then what is?
    And yes, these documents are nearly all Temple era texts. They don't
    mention the fall of the temple - something which was profound.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    John the disciple didn't seem to know the Temple had been destroyed. John the Revelator did.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Really? That's super interesting. Must look it up.
    :)
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I just don't see how they could possibly be the same. John the Revelator is so obviously an old Jew who hates Rome and he writes in a very old apocalyptic style.
     
  6. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    He would write in an "apocalyptic style" if he had an apocalyptic vision.
    “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches..."
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I don't know.. There is an earlier version of "Revelation" that is strictly Jewish.. Its nearly verbatim to Revelation in the Bible.
     
  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    It's super strange, these apocalyptic books in the bible.
    There's Daniel, Zechariah and bits of Isaiah and Haggai
    too. They drift in and out, from prophecy to apocalypse.
    Guess you could say some of the Jesus' saying are
    like this.
    What is this Jewish Revelations?
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Revelation of John, the original Jewish version
    Apocalypse composition, dating & authorship

    Revelation of John, the original Jewish version. Apocalypse composition, dating & authorship

    Apocalyptic literature was very popular for about 300 years starting about 200 BC.. If you scan early Jewish writings you will see several Apocalypse of Abraham, Daniel etc.

    Early Jewish Writings: Old Testament, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, and More
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I didn't give an argument, mostly because it would have been a great deal of work and would have accomplished absolutely nothing.

    Whether Jesus is a name of God or Brahman is a name of God or Allah is a name of God or Tao... is all a matter of debate. For me, the yad hey and vav hey is not pronounceable and too sacred to put into print. I settle for the titles of God or Lord.
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    What are you talking about??????

    You called Jesus' religion "Judaic." There is no such religion. Saying so refutes nothing I have said.
     
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  12. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    'Judaic' is a description. So, for example, in the Epistles, Jesus is said to be from Juda.



    your religion might be called, 'Talmudic'.

    So forth.
     
  13. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    For Jews, if one is using the name 'God', as just a title, then actually, it needs specification, like 'the Tetragrammaton', or such. Or, 'satan', whatever entity you are referring to.
    So, thusly, you are not using the name 'God', as a title, you are using it as a name. Because, Biblically, it is a name. It's a name, a title, and a word, or description, in other words.
    God=name of the Biblical God[name
    God of gods=name & title, description

    The way 'God' is translated as a name, makes this easy for Jews, because the occasion where the Tetragrammaton is translated as something besides 'Lord', it is translated as 'God'.

    'Lord', in Christianity, is also a 'name', because it is used without specification, in a similar manner, ie as a name, inferred meaning. This might be a bit different, however in a really strict sense, it's also a name.

    El Shaddai = name, title, and description
    Elohim = name and description
    El Elyon = name and title

    Adonai = name & title
    Lord of Hosts = title and description, note here, it's the religious belief, that makes this a 'name', also.

    Religious belief tends to be the factor, here, in other words, the names and titles, used as titles, can thusly change inference. [Lord, lord, same idea in other words.
     
    #293 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  14. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    The reason why this 'matters', is because, using 'God', as just a title, means whatever belief you are ascribing, to that usage, you are basically expecting the other person, to agree with you.

    So, if you say, that name can mean this or that deity, without specification, then I'm saying, no, I don't agree with your belief, concerning that, and following direct usage of the name God, it doesn't infer that, either.

    Hence the name used as a 'belief inferred title', unless there is agreement on whatever that is, you are in a " meaningless discussion", since that usage is either vague, or not agreed upon.

    That is where you are getting personal belief mixed up with actual usage, and it 'seems' correct, even though it isn't.
     
  15. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    It should be noted, this being 'the English Bible', or the gothic[english Bible, you're going to encounter 'interpretation'. Whether a Christian or other religious perspective, agrees with that, then that is something else, and thusly one is reading "outside the interpretation".
    Shouldn't be a concern for Jews, though, and most Christians.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You are making religions up out of whole cloth. You can describe Judaism as "Judaic" and "Talmudic" but the name of the religion is Judaism. There is no such religion as Judaic or Talmudic. The religion of Jesus was Judaism, specifically Second Temple Judaism.
     
  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    Jesus didn't practice your 'religion'. Your definition is too broad, because you are also using certain ideas of " heresy". So, you are not using descriptions to any logical meaning.

    If you were talking about something unimportant, then it wouldn't matter , however you are also 'interpreting ' the Bible, and therefore your belief about the religion, instead of what the religion actually is, are different things.

    Im not interested in your " interpretation" of another religion, that you don't understand, don't follow, and consider a heresy even by your subjective 'ideas'.

    That is even outside the texts and texts usage, it's just uninformed opinions.
     
    #297 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  18. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    Therefore?



    :cool:
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You have given many things as names which are not. Adonai simply means Lord -- this is not a name. Elohim simply means God (or gods, or judges, or heavenly beings) and is not a name. El Elyon simply means God Most High and is not a name etc.

    Exodus 6:3 states, " and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name [yad hey and vav hey] I made Me not known to them.

    In other words, Abraham gave God a title, but after Egypt, the Israelites knew the actual name of God.

    The pronunciation of this name is now lost in history. As Jews we do not attempt to use approximations when we read the text. Rather we substitute the word Adonai. And even now I am using Adonai for instructive purposes -- normally when we are not worshiping, we substitute Hashem or Adoshem (the Name). I have been taught that the spelling out of the letter names in print is acceptable if instructing. This is out of the GREATEST respect for the name of God, and the unwillingness to even come close to taking his name in vain.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    So are you. It is impossible to read the sacred texts or even the Christian scriptures without interpreting them.
     
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