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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by godnotgod, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Ah ha! So you do acknowledge that my conversation with Shermana was relevant to this thread, or you would not be asking a question about it yourself.... that's good.

    Now, You mention 'such temples'. There was only one Temple for the Jews to make sacrifice, give thanks and 'pay penalties'.

    We have been told that for a Jew to ignore such a function would be almost unthinkable. I still wonder about whether Yeshua would have been quite so drawn to such responsibilities as the average Jew, simply because he questioned other Laws and rules.

    So there you have the position that was reached before you suggested that we leave this thread......
     
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  2. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Let me clarify this real quick, there is no evidence from the texts that Yeshu questioned the Laws themselves. What he questioned were particular Pharisee interpretations and rulings, much like what we see with the Talmud today, that don't necessarily correlate to what the text says. You could say he was similar in ways to the Karaites. The text otherwise indicates that Yeshu was 100% in agreement and compliance with the written text.
     
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  3. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    There was also one in Egypt.

    LEONTOPOLIS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  4. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    But Jesus, though he was raised within the orthodox teachings, was a mystic. He was a Nazarene. As a Nazarene, would he have been bound by such requirements?

    And what of orhtodox Jews living in other countries? Would they have been required to travel back to the Temple each year?
     
  5. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    You see. When you say 'Eastern mystical concept', you are using it in a way that seems to pertain only to the East. But in reality, Yin/Yang, for example, are not confined only to the East, but is intended to symbolize universal principles that apply to all human interactions.

    When I referred to Yin/Yang, I was not going to the East first, and then attempting to overlay this principle onto what Yeshu said; I first referred to Yeshu's statement to 'Resist not, evil', and then proceeded to demonstrate how the principle actually works when seen in light of Eastern wisdom.

    Now here is another for your consideration:

    We know that lightning can occur anywhere; East, West, North, or South. And yet, in Matthew 24:27, the passage specifically has lightning, a metaphor for the second coming, emanating from the East, and illuminating as far as the West:


    24:27 As the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen unto the west, so shall be the advent of the Son of man.
    Pe****ta

    There is no real reason for restricting lightning in this way, unless the intent is to show that the teaching, which is light itself, comes from the East in order that light be shed into the West. Yeshu is an embodiment of the Logos, the teaching, itself, and the 'teaching' is the transmission of Light to man. John 8:12 confirms this:


    12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    This makes perfect hand in glove sense to me, though many will see it differently.
     
  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hello.....

    I've downloaded the whole description to read later!

    From a brief glance it does mention that Jews who visited this Egyptian Temple also fulfilled their duty by visiting Jerusalem:-
    It may be taken for granted that the Egyptian Jews sacrificed frequently in the temple of Leontopolis, although at the same time they fulfilled their duty toward the Temple at Jerusalem, as Philo narrates that he himself did ("De Providentia," in Eusebius, l.c. viii. §§ 14, 64).

    Thankyou for this info..... first I ever heard about it.:)
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    The point is, that one of the leading authorities (on Jewish history) on this site seems to be telling us that all the Jewish people commuted to and from the Temple as if it was their very life-force (spirit-force). ........ unthinkable to ignore their Lord's requirement that they made sacrifice, gave thanks and paid penalties...... within it.

    Further, we are being told that although Yeshua considered that the vast majority of the Pharisees and Priesthood were .... well..... untrue to their Lord, he would never break his God's direct commandments and requirements.

    Ergo, it would seem that true Jews could travel far, maybe as merchants, etc, but that they could not stay away from their Temple as permanent exiles.

    I can only wait for any support or challenge from equally knowledgeable members, because I don't, and wouldn't, know. But if he's right, where does that leave your proposal?
     
  8. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Well, for one thing, being a Nazarene, Yeshu would not have practiced animal sacrifice. Remember, animal sacrifice was the prefigurement for Jesus himself as sacrifice, as the 'Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world'. What use would he have for such practices?

    As for the Temple being 'the very life-force', Yeshu, as 'the light, the life, and the way', would not need the Temple. HE is the source; not the Temple, and yes, that co-incides precisely with the idea that Yeshu was the head of a Jewish mystical cult known as the Nazarenes, who are Essenes, in which internal union with the divine nature is the reality, as he said:


    'The kingdom of God is within you'

    'I and the Father are one'

    Everything that I see points to perhaps an early upbringing and exposure to the Temple and its rites, but a later break with tradition as Yeshu's intuitive awareness unfolded, which allowed him to see beyond mere convention and ritual. This is a typical occurrence in the mystical world. Sort of like leaving your training wheels behind at some point. In the East, the Buddha talks about a raft as a metaphor for the doctrine that gets you across to another shore, and questions his monks as to whether the raft should be abandoned or carried onward. Yeshu iterated this reality by continually making statements to the effect that: 'You have heard it said that blah blah blah, but I am here to tell you differently'.
     
    #88 godnotgod, Oct 14, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  9. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    And this would be another one of your mistakes.

    No one knows if Jesus said those words.

    We only know the unknown Hellenistic authors did who were paralleling Jesus divinity with that of the emperors according to modern scholarships.
     
  10. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    It seems that only certain factions of the Essenes believed that animal sacrifice was not permitted nor an original part of the Law. We know virtually nothing of the early Nazarenes especially to say whether they were allied with this particular faction of the Essenes.


    Then he certainly wouldn't have made such a big issue about the moneychangers, nor would he have told the leper to go and make an offering "As Moses commanded" after healing him.
     
  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    That's interesting..... Yeshua turned over the 'money-changers
    -tables' but only turned over the dove-seller's benches. He did nothing to hurt the doves. Therefore, he disapproved of the money-traders and the sacrifice of animals....? Surely, if he had accepted animal sacrifice then he would have left the dove-sellers alone?

    Could this 'suggest' that he was a Nazarene who did object to animal sacrifice?
     
  12. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Both of the scriptures I cited appear in the Aramaic Pe****ta, and if Pe****ta primacy is the case, it means they were written in Aramaic before any Greeks got their hands on them.
     
  13. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    I have a question regarding Aramaic primacy: the oldest books of the New Testaments are letters from Paul to Greek congregations. Why in the world would Paul write to Greek-speaking congregations in Aramaic? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. :confused:

    The Gospels were written later. I find it likely that Paul's letters to Greek congregations might have "established" Greek as the lingua franca of 1st C. Christianity.
     
    #93 crossfire, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  14. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    The passage in question goes like this:

    43 Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: 44 “See that you don’t tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”
    Mark 1:43-44

    IOW, the offering of sacrifice was merely a formality; a gesture. Leprosy was seen as a consequence of sin, and the old law stated that animal sacrifice removed sin. But Jesus, knowing the sacrifice was ineffective, ordered the healed leper to make the sacrifice anyway, for the purpose of demonstrating to the priests that a miracle had occurred.
     
  15. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    This from an Essene essay on Yeshu and the Nazarenes about how St. Paul overwrote Yeshu's vegetarian teachings, sanctioning animal sacrifice and the eating of animal flesh:


    There was an ancient Jewish religion which was very mystical, high and noble. It was a very evolved form of religion, rooted in respect and care for all of creation. This ancient Jewish religion was both very esoteric -- as evidenced by its Kaballah mysticism -- and yet very practical, as evidenced by its emphasis on daily lifestyle disciplines, ecology and communal economics. It was also VERY VEGETARIAN: not only was animal sacrifice forbidden, but so was the eating of animal flesh absolutely condemned. War and slavery had no part in this nonviolent religion. Women were the equals to men; women were entitled -- in fact, encouraged-- to participate in the Priesthood. This Priesthood -- called "The Priesthood of Melki Zadek" -- was governed by God via good angels and the divinely inspired BOOK OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT. Their original founder was Enoch; later, Moses led a major remanifestation of their movement. THIS ENLIGHTENED ANCIENT JEWISH RELIGION WAS KNOWN AS "ESSENE NAZARENE JUDAISM".

    But Essene Nazarene Judaism was not the only form of Judaism. A violent, flesh-eating form of Judaism based on bloody animal sacrifice became the dominant religion in Israel. The nonviolent, vegetarian Essenes were persecuted by the animal sacrifice cult. Both forms of Judaism expected a Messiah: the sacrificial cult expected the Messiah to be a warrior king; the Essene Nazarenes expected a Messiah of Peace, a spiritual King. And so it was that the Messiah of Peace, the spiritual King of Israel, came to earth through the Essenes; for it was the Essene scriptures and prophecies that proved true. And so it was that the Essene Nazarene Jews, practitioners of the authentic Judaism established by God through Enoch and Moses, BECAME THE VERY FIRST CHRISTIANS!....

    The fall from original vegetarianism into flesh eating and then human sacrifice is described in The Covenant of Love (a version of the New Testament revised with help from the Dead Sea Scrolls and published as part of Upton Ewing's, The Essene Christ). We read:

    "And God said to man: 'Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed and every tree in the garden... to you it shall be for meat....' But alas!.... The will of God was no longer obeyed. Divine principles were overcome by sensual desires.... The most sacred of trusts of all time was annulled by the lusts of the appetite, and the blood of an innocent creature stained the hands of man....

    "The Tree of Life was rent with pain. Its leaves hung limp in sorrow, its precious fruits fell to the ground in rot, and its stench deplored the sickening deed....

    "Fear and foreboding grasped the heart of every living creature. The bold became vicious and the meek fled in terror, and the carcasses of dead beasts became the abomination of carnal appetites....

    "Farther and farther man strayed from the truth of God. More and more did his power of choice become dominated by greeds and lusts. Weaker and weaker became his will to resist the cravings of the senses. Greater and greater grew the separation between the way of God and the way of man. And the True Light was obscured by the denseness of man 's own maleficent designs, and he no longer recognized the Divine Presence. Man thereafter began to invent his own god or gods.... [at which point the demons set themselves up to be worshipped as gods.]

    "They arranged a variety of lewd ceremonials and lurid dances to please the indulgence of a 'sensuous God'. They spilled the blood of virgins, of children, and of the gentle lamb and the faithful ox upon the temple altars to satisfy a lustful God."


    While the last paragraph of the above excerpt is shocking enough -- dealing with human sacrifice -- Peter, in the Clementine manuscript, makes an additional claim; he declares that the demons not only instituted animal and human sacrifice, but even CANNIBALISM:

    "... these bast**d men tasted also human flesh. For it was not a long step to the consumption of flesh like their own, having first tasted it in other forms."....


    Jesus on vegetarianism; in the Essene New Testament we read:

    Jesus said:

    "Verily I say unto you, they who partake of benefits which are gotten by wronging one of God's creatures, cannot be righteous; nor can they understand holy things, or teach the mysteries of the kingdom, whose hands are stained with blood, or whose mouths are defiled with flesh.

    "God giveth the grains and the fruits of the earth for food; and for righteous man truly there is no other lawful sustenance for the body....

    "Wherefore I say unto all who desire to be my disciples, keep your hands from bloodshed and let no flesh meat enter your mouths, for God is just and bountiful, who ordained that man shall live by the fruits and seeds of the earth alone."


    Of course, Jesus practiced what he preached: he was himself a vegetarian. In The Gospel of the Holy Twelve, we read:

    Jesus said:

    "Of the fruits of the trees and the seeds of the herbs alone do I partake, and these are changed by the Spirit into my flesh and my blood. Of these alone and their like shall ye eat who believe in me, and are my disciples, for of these, in the spirit, come life and healing unto man."[
    /I]

    In another verse of the same manuscript, Jesus declares:

    "I am come to end the sacrifices and feasts of blood, and if ye cease not offering and eating of flesh and blood, the wrath of God shall not cease from you, even as it came to your fathers in the wilderness, who lusted for flesh, and they ate to their content, and were filled with rottenness, and the plague consumed them."

    Immediately prior to the above quotations of Jesus, I listed two excerpts which prove Paul upheld the eating of animals; but what about meat sacrificed to idols? In his epistle called "Corinthians" (the same epistle in which he ordered women to keep their heads covered as a sign of submission to their husbands -- or have their heads shaved bald as punishment -- and never to speak in church), Paul wrote:

    "As to eating meat offered in sacrifice unto idols, it makes no difference to God whether you eat such meat."

    Compare the above words of Paul with the following words of Peter; in The Clementine Homilies, Peter declared:

    "But you are still ignorant of this law, that everyone who worships demons or their idols, or sacrifices to them, or partakes with them of their table, shall become subject to them and receive all punishment from them, as being under wicked lords. And you who, on account of ignorance of this law, have been corrupted beside their altars, and have been satiated with food offered to them, have come under their power, and do not know you have been in every way injured in respect of your bodies. But you ought to know that the demons have no power over any one, unless first he be their table-companion; since not even their chief can do anything contrary to the law imposed upon them by God wherein the demons have no power over any one who does not worship them by being their table-companions in the eating of flesh.... But you, being ignorant of the foreordained law, are under the power of the chief of demons through evil deeds, wherefore you are polluted in body and soul, and in the present life you are tyrannized over by sufferings and demons.... If therefore, ye wish to be the vesture of the Divine Spirit,.... neither believe in idols, nor partake with them of the impure table...."

    The rest of the essay can be found here:

    http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm
     
    #95 godnotgod, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  16. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Oh goody! More culture wars. (As if Christianity didn't have enough of those already.)
     
  17. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    This, in part, may shed some light:

    Pe****ta.org • View topic - Would Paul write to greek communities in Aramaic?

    http://www.pe****ta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3448

    http://www.pe****ta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=446
     
    #97 godnotgod, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  18. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    I'm really not prepared to get into a full breakdown on why the Torah's statement that meat eating of kosher animals and animal sacrifice is allowable has no reason to be regarded as the interpolations of an evil carnivore Priestly sect, or why the Gospel of the Holy Twelve is not necessarily inspired and canonical writings, or why the part about Noah being allowed to eat meat should be viewed as interpolated, or why the Essene vegetarian faction was not necessarily right in the head (or represented all of the Essenes), so I'm going to just have to agree to disagree with you there. Besides, it's beyond the scope of your thread here.

    I do agree that Paul said eating meat sacrificed to idols was not a problem, which would probably disqualify him as an authentic prophet.

    I also agree that the first Christians and disciples of Jesus were the Nazarenes, who were probably mostly comprised of Essenes of various factions, but I will not entertain any notion that the Essenes were completely unified in everything, such as whether meat eating was not allowed and animal sacrifices prohibited.

    I'm a big fan of the Clementine Homilies, but I do have a few doubts about them, and they may have seen their own edits over the years, especially with all the differences with the "Recognitions" version, and those differences may have in fact been penned in by this Vegetarian Ebionite sect that likely came from that Essene faction.
     
    #98 Shermana, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  19. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Suffrin' Succotash
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    As an aside, I would ask if Jesus were vegetarian how he could have practiced the Passover feast? I think Passover requires eating a hoofed animal. Also why would he participate in the sign of the twelve baskets of bread, five barley loaves and two fish? (John chap 6 and Mark chap 6) In that sign he multiplied fish, so people could eat them. Is there some way for vegetarians to fulfill the Passover requirement?
     
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