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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by godnotgod, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Does any of this discussion apply to the topic, or should it be on another thread?
     
  2. angellous_evangellous

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    There's literary evidence that I choose to ignore because of my bias. Everything else is either rooted in lack of training and obstinate ignorance.
     
  3. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    [jest] There! I knew we something in common! [/jest]
     
  4. angellous_evangellous

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    ha! It's not so uncommon, especially with folks who think that they're uncovering something that compromises an institution that has thrived in spite of a wide variety of ideas that have been common knowledge for hundreds of years.

    *chooses something he doesn't understand and thinks that it uncovers something new*
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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    I do think that it's at least possible that Jesus could have travelled to Egypt or India because he could have followed a caravan on the trade routes. India is a little more likely because of the congruence between some Hindu teachings and Jesus's teachings.

    But the Gospels and the non-canonical Infancy Gospels that try to explain Jesus's silent years -- they don't place Jesus in Egypt or India during the silent period [about 12 yrs to 30 yrs old]. There is a tradition of spending a few years in Egypt, but the family moves back to Palestine while still a child. There is no reason for early Christians to cover it up, because an exotic education would have contributed to Jesus's credibility -- especially if it came from Egypt (which was used as the epitome of a good education for other notable thinkers).

    There's very little about the life of Jesus in the Gospels and other early literature. It's difficult enough to imagine his life with what little we have without adding completely unrelated evidence into the pot.
     
    #65 angellous_evangellous, Oct 11, 2013
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  6. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    How many caches of various scripture like Qumran might there have been in Palestine during the first century? What are the possibilities that scripture was part of the trade that came through the trade routes? If there were scriptures available in the area, is there any need for Jesus to have traveled to the east?
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Wake up!
    A question arose 'Would Jesus (in the East) have ignored the requirement for all Jews to regularly attend the Temple and Make sacrifice'.

    I then asked whether Jesus would have considered that 'summons' to be so important.

    The answer came back ,'Yes, he would'. I then replied:-

    Ok..... I know that I should study Jewish background, but it's taking me some time to really pay close attention to single gospels, just now.

    Now..... which part of that conversation did you have difficulty in understanding? Which part of that conversation did you lose track of?
     
  8. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    It thrives because it is a myth that requires no proof in order to function. In fact, because it cannot be proven is exactly what protects it from disproof. It thrives because ignorant people don't actually need to know anything. Just submit and believe. Sure. Those dancing cave wall shadows in Plato's Cave continue to successfully keep people hypnotized because they don't know any better, and because they don't want to know any better. They are asleep and like to keep it that way. Not only are they asleep, they do everything in their power to keep other sleeping people asleep. They thrive due to sheer numbers. That is to say, what is of prime import is security, and the more of those who are just like them, the more secure they feel. Homogeneity is the key. If you are different, like a mystic, for example, you will be set upon by the others. Deviation from the norm is frowned upon. Creativity, unless it serves the belief system, is frowned upon. Freedom is translated as 'free will' in their minds, and it was free will that got them into trouble in the first place. It is still touted as a feature of the religion, but it is really only window dressing, just as the Resurrection is. Whenever one of them catches a glimpse of actual Reality, they deny it, even condemning it as heresy. Let us not forget that when this 'thriving' religion was threatened by other ideas in the past, it conducted a systematic bloodletting for over 400 years called The Inquisition.

    Yeah, it thrives all right. But it feeds on ignorance, stupidity, fear, and blood.
     
    #68 godnotgod, Oct 11, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  9. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
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    But the "exotic" part would be little different in many ways than what is claimed about Jesus now buy scholars who see in him a Hellenistic philosopher. Egypt was thoroughly Hellenized (and Romanized) by this point. It had been a part of the Greek Empire since Alexander the Great (and the library of Alexandria connected to Greece since before the city itself). By Jesus' time the ancient Hieroglyphic alphabet was already dying out and the Greek-based Old Coptic script taking its place. People who wish to see in Jesus the exotic Eastern wisdom of old frequently don't know what India and Egypt (among other places) were like during his time:
    "The latest hymns of the Rig Veda and the earliest sections of the Upanishads, both of which came to be Hindu scriptures, contain the first recorded concepts of metaphysical absolute in Indian Religion. However, the first systematic philosophical expression of absolutism- belief in an impersonal, ultimate reality which pervades and explains the entire universe- was the Buddhist Nāgārjuna's exposition of the doctrine of Śūnyatā in the second century CE."
    Reat, N. R. (1994). Buddhism: a history. Jain Publishing Company.


    Jesus is so frequently portrayed as knowing traditions that didn't exist until after he died.
     
  10. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Are you kidding? 'Exotic education'? 'exotic' in whose eyes? those of the West? Now why would God in the flesh need an education from men, let alone an exotic one? Remember, Jesus, even at 12, was the one doing the teaching of the elders in the synagogue, not the other way around!

    God does not require validation for any credibility from men as a consequence of 'education'. The primary teachings of Jesus come out of the living present. Either you understand them now, or you do not. He spoke directly to people who had no education. Any credibility would have been found in his direct words about the spiritual life. This has zilch to do with 'academics', and is only connected to history as a means of providing a handle for explanation to ordinary men. His primary message was mystical in nature, which is outside of time and space.


    'Before Abraham was, I Am'

    If Jesus was indeed God, as Christians claim, you are either God or you are not. There is no 'becoming God'. Least of all, Jesus did not require an education from men to teach him who he was. That he already knew, as he testifies many times.

    But as an ordinary man who realized his spiritual potential, that is, as a mystic, his divine nature would have unfolded over time. It is the light from his divine nature which would have illuminated what he had been taught from men, providing the means for the correct interpretation of such knowledge, and NOT the other way around! And that is exactly what Jesus did. Essentially, Jesus, just like a Zen Buddhist, was constantly showing men that what their rational minds thought was reality, that what they had been indoctrinated with as the truth, was not so:


    There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12

    You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me.
    John 5:39

    You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
    Matthew 5:38-39

    BTW, Matt 5:38 is not a moral teaching; it is a mystical one, because Jesus is applying the doctrine of the relationship of opposites, of Yin and Yang. The logic goes like this:

    'When a concept of The Good is created, a concept of Evil has also been simultaneously created. Having created a concept of Evil, one must now oppose Evil, as dictated by The Good. However, in opposing Evil, one only makes Evil stronger. Therefore, the wise never do [moral] good.' [contrary to public opinion].
     
    #70 godnotgod, Oct 12, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  11. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    You're confusing the tradition about Reality, with Reality itself.
     
  12. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    There must have been many Jews living in other countries in which they did not have access to such temples and sacrifices.
     
  13. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    One could also point to Dhammapada 1:1-5: hate doesn't overcome hate. Hate is overcome by non-hate.
     
  14. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
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    You're confusing stupidity with knowledge. I don't need a spoon-fed commercialized, internet-educated "mystic" to tell me about any traditions or reality. The fact that you can spout on and on about Eastern practices you learned from Wikipedia, physics you learned from youtube, and historical Jesus studies you make up doesn't amount to much.
     
    #74 LegionOnomaMoi, Oct 12, 2013
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  15. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Jesus was not declaring to be God as most Christians claim, but he was declaring to have existed (likely as a Divine being or "A god" of sorts) since before Abraham. I've covered this issue on multiple threads if you'd like more detail. So no, it wasn't some kind of "I am one with the Universe" phrase, although that may apply to John 10:30 in a way but still in the "I am of one purpose with God" sense.

    Nothing remotely uniquely Eastern about any of his comments like that. Perhaps uniquely Essense but that's speculative.

    The Trinity Delusion: John 8:58

    How do you know the concept of "Yin and Yang" didn't come from ancient, unwritten Jewish missionaries instead? I guess we can find ANY Eastern mystical concept and force it to be a parallel that we want and claim they got it from the East.
     
  16. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    My goodness! Such automatic foaming at the mouth still going on, LOL. :biglaugh:

    The fact remains, Legion, in spite of your academic smokescreen:

    You confuse the tradition about Reality with Reality itself.

    Yeshu's consciousness is outside tradition. You are trying to lock it into tradition. You are mistaken, in spite of what you think of me. I suppose your ego was severely bruised from our previous encounters, and so you respond accordingly. You'll get over it, I'm sure. May I suggest a few sessions with your QiGong master to set you straight once more?
     
    #76 godnotgod, Oct 13, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  17. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    I am not interpreting Yeshu's statement about Abraham to mean he is God, nor in the way you just described. I interpret it to say that Yeshu is not a product of history, as Abraham was. Yeshu's consciousness comes out of the living present. It is unborn, and therefore, deathless. IOW, he has always been, because he was never born, never died.

    As for Jesus being God, he does state: "I and the Father are One". That means only one thing: divine union. So, yes, Jesus is saying his nature is the same as that of the Father, who is indeed God, at least in the Jewish tradition. But even if we are only referring to his divine nature, the fact remains: one does not become divine; one only realizes what is already the case, and because that is so, any learning from academic institutions or even religious teachers would not weigh in. It is precisely why Zen Buddhists, upon realization of their own Enlightenment, have been known to burn the scriptures. Knowledge of one's divine nature is completely transcendent of academia. It is academia and religion that are about the spiritual experience. The spiritual experience comes first, THEN come the scriptures, which is exactly what Yeshu pointed out to his listeners, when he said: 'You search the scriptures...etc."


    I'm not trying to establish that his comments point to the East or even to the Essenes, but only that they are mystical in nature.

    How do we know the concept didn't come from Martians either?

    Do we have any evidence at all to even point to the idea that that concept may have come out of Jewish tradition? If anything, it points to the opposite idea, that the opposites are not in harmony, but in conflict. Perhaps the only connection to Yin/Yang, or relative interaction of dualities may be found in Kabbalah, as it is the mystical branch of Judaism. IOW, orthodoxy would not tend to see the opposites as being in harmony, buy mysticism would.

    Would'nt the focus of Jewish missionaries primarily be conversion, repentance, and sin? If that is the case, Good and Evil would not be seen in a Yin/Yang cooperative relationship, but more as their being in moral conflict one with the other. That view only comes about from an awakened, not a conditioned, consciousness, and that is what a mystical view is about: it sees the spiritual and the physical world as being in union, rather than as dualities. It sees Good and Evil as operative principles, rather than as personifications, such as Good Jesus vs.Evil Satan, for example.
     
    #77 godnotgod, Oct 13, 2013
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  18. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
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    We call that experience.


    You mean, in spite of any actual factual data? What do you offer again? Youtube? Please, try to come up with something other than this "I am somehow in tune with the Source Itself (Wikipedia)" because it's getting really old for anybody who has a high school education or more (and frequently less).


    You're an internet educated "mystic" who spouts on and on about "reality" and Eastern notions thanks to an education based on youtube. We can view your posts and see you backing your betters based on their knowledge of "the source" which they state is founded upon research and scholarship you can't begin to comprehend.
     
  19. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Yes, the principle is the same. Actually, my example comes more from Taoism, where it is said: 'requite hatred with virtue'. But this is just one more clue to the idea that Yeshu was a man who understood and practiced Eastern teachings amongst Westerners. The idea is not to meet force with force, as the ordinary man thinks he should, but to practice passivity and receptivity as a means of dealing with aggression and evil intent.
     
  20. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    I call it 'foaming at the mouth'. The very fact that you are now defensive is indicative of your ignorance. An intellectual like yourself should know better than to indulge in ad hominem attacks; it's just plain stupidity. And the 'logic' you applied to Yeshua and Buddhism based on academia, is erroneous, because you place intellectual knowledge about Reality above direct experience via intuitive insight. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but factual knowledge makes sense only when seen in the light of Reality itself.

    I see you have changed "I" to "we". Are you now wrapping the group around you for increased security and authority?



    Your comments continue to indicate your ignorance, and how you continue to nibble around the edges, rather than to pierce right to the heart of the matter. Leave your academic baggage filled with dead facts and get in touch with your breath. When will you understand: factual data is not reality. Thinking that it is, is leading you to the wrong conclusions.



    You still don't get it, Legion, and I refuse to discuss it with you any further:

    Research and scholarship are based on the source, not the other way around. You are a creature of academia, and it's got you enslaved. Get thee to the nunnery, or at least to your QiGong instructor, so you can learn to see, rather than just think.

    It's intellectual types like you that eventually break down in a heap, sobbing on their meditation mats because their academia, reason, logic, and analyis all come to a dead end and fail them. But that's a good thing. It is the beginning of understanding. And no, this comes to you not from YouTube, though you might learn a few things there, rather than having your nose buried in dead academic journals and then coyly trying to impress us here with quotations in Greek, which no one understands, but looks impressive and 'intellectual'.
     
    #80 godnotgod, Oct 13, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
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