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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by godnotgod, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. nash8

    nash8 Da man, when I walk thru!

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    Maybe because the monks themselves denied any document like said even existing.



    Why they have not been revealed to anyone besides Notovitch would be even better. You still have not definitively answered my question as to why this was such in the first thread. Although I agree with your reasoning as to why, I still don't see it that Buddhist's would bold face lie to someone about it. Kind of hurts their credibility, even if it was for "benevolent" means.

    Oh you mean, the most textually attested figure in antiquity? :rolleyes: What figure in antiquity is more likely to exist than Jesus? I don't think there's nearly as much evidence for his existence as their is for his travels to the east.

    There is nothing factual or provable in my opinion, so therefore that would make belief in everything in the mind of the beholder.


    You have still yet to answer why others were shown and confirmed the existence of the scrolls in relatively modern human history.

    The other thing I find odd is that one of the refutations for the plausibility of these documents is that, "The monks at Hemis heard stories of the Notovitch story, and promoted it in order to gain popularity". I believe this was an essay by Price on the subject. I listed it in the other thread, I'll see if I can find it again.

    Only the largest amount of textual attestation in antiquity. I guess that doesn't count because it's "The Word of Gawd".

    It seems to me that Jesus was outwardly opposed to the Jewish law of the time. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the keepers of the law at the time, and it doesn't seem as though he had a fond opinion towards them at all.
     
  2. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    This is such a common misconception, Jesus was opposed to their "manmade traditions", not the Law itself. Jesus was quite clear that he was here "Not to abolish the Law, but fulfill it". You don't "Fulfill the law" by breaking it!

    Why would any Jew consider Jesus the Messiah if he was teaching to violate the commandments which were 'perpetual"? Sigh, it seems I end up having to explain in this in most threads about Jesus.

    "Anyone who breaks or teaches to break the least of these commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom".
     
  3. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    What is meant by 'fabricated the evidence'? Do you understand that to mean that the scrolls themselves are non-existent?
     
  4. angellous_evangellous

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    They are in Nazareth.
     
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  5. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    You may want to consider reading about subjects you try to push.

     
  6. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Where did hellfire teachings come from, then? :confused:
     
  7. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Hmmmm...well, let's take the following, for example:

    Jesus famous words uttered from the cross were:


    "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

    Please take notice of one important feature of this statement: Jesus is not asking his Father to forgive his murderers for their SIN, but for their IGNORANCE. That is huge. Buddhists do not place their emphasis on sin, but on ignorance and liberation from ignorance. Jesus, as a compassionate being, would also want his murderers to be liberated, since, as a realized spiritual being, he understood that the root of wrongdoing is ignorance. The ordinary man does not see it this way; he wants revenge and retribution for wrongdoing, which he calls 'sin'. Even the ignorant Jewish high priests called for his crucifixion as punishment for his 'sin'. Jesus pointed out the old "eye for an eye" law and the new way wrongdoing should be dealt with, which is forgiveness. IOW, you don't forgive the act itself, but the underlying root cause of the act. The Roman soldiers who carried out his execution firmly believed they were justly punishing a criminal, and that he was getting his just deserts. Yes, our social indoctrinations are based upon ignorance, which is exactly what Jesus was all the while trying to point out.

    This is a Buddhistic understanding, not a Christian one.
     
    #27 godnotgod, Oct 11, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
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  8. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Yes it's about ignorance, but he's just saying that they don't realize they are sinning in putting him to death. They are just easily led sheep who think they're doing the right thing. Kinda simple you'd think. That has absolutely nothing to do with Buddhism. That's just basic common sense. Do you think Buddhism has a monopoly on common sense?

    Otherwise, Jesus is kinda big on the whole sin concept throughout the rest of the gospels which I'd place my bets you're not exactly too familiar with.
     
  9. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Probably before the Essenes, who wrote clear references to hellfire in the DSS, the War Scroll particularly. Probably long before even the author of the Book of Enoch, who had a clear reference to burning fire for the wicked in the afterlife.
     
  10. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    You would lie too if the Nazis asked if you were hiding Jews in your basement.

    They, in fact, have been revealed to several others, all of whom have verified their existence. Do you want references, or do you want to do your own research?

    Yes, go ahead and show the wolves exactly where you hide your sheep. Then the world will give you an extra 'atta boy' for being so honest, LOL.
     
  11. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Mine is Evangellous THE premiere Carnie Barker, Las Vegas Entertainer and Grand Impersonator, second only to Elvis.
     
  12. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    hmm...
    From The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness, col. 14:
    (16) Rise up, rise up, O God of gods, and raise Yourself in power, [O King of Kings ...]
    (17) let all the Sons of Darkness [scatter from before You.] Let the light of Your majesty shi[ne forever upon gods and men, as a fire burning in the dark places of the damned]
    (18) Let it burn [the damned of Sh]eol, as an [eternal] burning [among the transgressors ... in all the appointed times of eternity.] ​

    This sounds more like when Jesus's disciples asked Jesus if he wanted them to call down fire from heaven to consume those who didn't accept him. Jesus rebuked them.

    Much different than Jesus's teaching on hellfire as being consumed by passion.
     
  13. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Ah, the fire from Heaven is a far different concept from the idea of the hellfire that those who refuse to repent go to upon death. The fire in the place of the damned that burns fallen gods and men alike very much sounds like what Jesus taught. And then there's Enoch's valley of fire for the damned.
     
  14. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Correction: Las Vegas, with the Great Evangellous.

    Q: is there any REAL archaeological evidence of a First Century Las Vegas?
     
  15. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Even if true, people sometimes are forced to back down from their statements for various overwhelming reasons.

    There are others to whom the scrolls have been shown, and who have verified their existence, some who at first doubted Notovich.
     
  16. nash8

    nash8 Da man, when I walk thru!

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    Yet again, I ask you what is the Law?

    From what I understand, Jew's didn't nor presently do consider him the Messiah? Am I wrong to assume this? :shrug:

    Are these the ten commandments?

    Fabricated evidence is that Notovitch made them up. If anyone can't go seem the scrolls themselves if they so desired, they are non-existent to many. I agree that the exposure of such scrolls would not have been a wise idea considering the power of the Catholic church, even in 1897. But now, I don't think the monks would have much to worry about in the current to reveal such transcripts.

    Also, considering the controversy that these scrolls would provide. I find it very interesting that so few historians have tried to confirm this theory since 1897.

    LMFAO, frubals to you sir.

    Actually, others have reported seeing the scrolls themselves. Theirs even a supposed picture depicting a monk showing the scrolls. I'll have to see if I can find the link to the webcite depicting this. A lady went to verify the existence of the scrolls, and said that she saw them also, and actually has a picture of a monk actually showing her the scrolls. If you feel like sifting through 1000's of posts in the other Lost Years of Jesus thread, it's in their somewhere lol. ;)

    Many texts accredited to the Essenes, have hellfire type teachings in them. However, I find many of these texts much more akin to early gnostic sects that might have taken up residence in former Essene strongholds considering that the Essenes were all but wiped out during the war with Rome, and the subsequent destruction of the temple.

    I would say that the Dead Sea scrolls are a combination of safegaurded Essene texts mixed in with later Gnostic sects. The "hellfire" teachings just doesn't line up with the information, albiet minimal, that we have from the historians of the time.


    Where is Jesus big on the sin concept? How do these passages promoting the idea of sin compare language wise with the rest of the passage in which it is contained? Then again is ignorance sin according to the Law? If so, the concept of sin would be akin to the Buddhist concept of Avidya.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidyā_(Buddhism)

    There is a prominent theory that the Essenes were an offshoot of the Zadokite priests and/or vice versa. Either which group could be generally qualified as "Essenes". I would say that it would be fairly plausible that the Zadokite priest lineage(Zealots) would have had "hellfire" teachings. Also considering the vast diversity attributed to the Essenes by the historians, I think it could be loosely concluded that the Zealots had some type of basis in Essene philosophy. They just happened to be the group that took "the fire for the unholy" to the extreme.
     
  17. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    Actually, yes, since the rest of the world is focused on 'eye for an eye'. But a Buddhist would himself tell you it is nothing special.

    Your argument is just so much hot air, as it just comes back to the fact that ignorance is the point, not sin. You are adding things in that aren't there. I am basing my argument only on those words which are actually spoken, nothing more, nothing less.


    I just notice that little bits and pieces of Yeshu's original teachings come shining through here and there, scattered amongst the Romanized Jesus fabrications.
     
  18. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Jesus teaching on hellfire:

    Matt 5:
    21 “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire. 23 So if you are offering your gift on the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Reach a settlement quickly with your adversary while you’re on the way with him, or your adversary will hand you over to the judge, the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I assure you: You will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny!
    Adultery in the Heart

    27 “You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to go into hell!​

    Notice the differentiation between the judgement of the Sanhedrin and hellfire?

    It looks like Jesus's teaching on hellfire was about being filled with passions, as highlighted in red above. He talked about removing the source of those passions, as well. This is very much in line with Buddha's Fire Sermon
     
  19. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    All references to "The Law" in the NT are the commandments that were considered handed down to Moses. All of them. Including the one about making a proper offering to the Altar after being cleansed of leprosy as Jesus instructed the leper to do.



    You are 100% wrong to assume some of the Jews back then didn't consider him the Messiah. The entire Messianic movement was 100% Torah obedient Jews until Paul entered the picture. Jews today don't consider him the Messiah but that's 100% irrelevant to the historical issue, and that in itself is a source of debate which I have participated in several times on this board. The point is that no Torah obedient Jew would accept Jesus as Messiah if he was teaching Lawlessness. He even said "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness". Those who rejected Jesus as lawless perhaps didn't believe him regarding what was and wasn't allowed on the Sabbath at best.


    All of them. Including the wearing of Fringes which Jesus did, including ones he was trying to straighten out the exact meaning of like "Eye for an eye" which even Jews today don't follow literally, and what exactly was allowed on the Sabbath, and his views on controversial issues, such as siding with Shammai on the divorce issue.

    Have you read the Gospels? Matthew at least? Matthew 5?



    Well someone should go tell them, they're missing out on a SERIOUS gravy train. And Tibetan Buddhists aren't exactly afraid of gravy trains, just ask the Dali Llama.

    I don't see it as particularly shocking.





    I can see why. We should look at each one of the examples in detail.

    Where?

    Yes, Henrietta Merrick in 1921, also trying to get some of that sweet, sweet gravy.

    Search option works. I'm sure not too many posts would have those names.



    The early Gnostic sects most likely had relations or direct descendency from some of the Essene factions, this is 100% true I'd say. And the Gnostic also tended to indeed have harsh afterlife concepts. See the Pistis Sophia, which was arguably written by a very Jewish, Tanakh-following Gnostic sect.

    I don't see why it doesn't line up.



    Ummm, where do I even begin. I'm really suspecting you have not given the Gospels a full read, am I mistaken? Try Mark 9 for starters. And Matthew 25, Jesus says those who refuse to help their brothers are going to suffer in the afterlife. What do you think Jesus meant that its better to chop off your hand or gouge your eye out than go into the fire with them? Pretty much everything Jesus teaches is something regarding sin or misinterpretation of the law in a way that results in sin, or hypocrisy.

    I'm really not sure what exactly you're trying to say here, can you rephrase that please.




    There is a prominent theory that the Essenes were an offshoot of the Zadokite priests and/or vice versa. Either which group could be generally qualified as "Essenes". I would say that it would be fairly plausible that the Zadokite priest lineage(Zealots) would have had "hellfire" teachings. Also considering the vast diversity attributed to the Essenes by the historians, I think it could be loosely concluded that the Zealots had some type of basis in Essene philosophy. They just happened to be the group that took "the fire for the unholy" to the extreme.[/QUOTE]

    No more extreme than the authors of Enoch, and I doubt only one faction of the Essenes used Enoch. I doubt the differences between the Essene factions were all that great, excluding some particularly major areas like whether meat eating was allowed and whether animal sacrifice was an original part of the Law, and these ideas may have influenced certain factions of the Ebionites as well.
     
    #39 Shermana, Oct 11, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  20. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    The monks know about casting pearls to swine.

    No, anyone cannot just go see the scrolls, but you are ignoring the significant number and caliber of people who have seen and verified the existence of the scrolls.

    The Church's hysteria over other teachings has become even more pronounced in modern day, as it has launched a campaign from the pulpits to condemn evolution, wicca, zen, yoga, new age, gnositicism, etc., all in the same breath. Bring those scrolls out now and you are talking major conniption as the Church fights tooth and nail to stay on top.
     
    #40 godnotgod, Oct 11, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
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