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Featured Jesus tells us "Being Gay is Okay" IMHO

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by stvdv, Jun 30, 2018.

?
  1. Gay NOT Okay

  2. Gay IS Okay

  3. Gay IS Okay [if no sex]

  4. Straight NOT Okay

  5. Straight IS Okay

  6. Straight IS Okay [if no sex; unless for kids]

  7. Marriage is MUST

  8. Marriage is FREE

  9. Masturbation NOT Okay

  10. Masturbation IS Okay

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. dust1n

    dust1n Zindīq

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    But.. The Bible isn't a boss. It's a book. So, anyone can read it any what they want from it. There is no authority on this. There is no boss in this scenario. I mean, seems like you would like to be the boss in this regard...
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Maybe. Maybe not. It depends upon what they want and what they believe.

    No. That's pretty accurate. Fornication means forbidden sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. The Hebrew word is zanah, Genesis 38:24, Exodus 34:16, Hosea 1:2, Leviticus 19:29. It can mean harlotry, prostitution, fornication or immoral intercourse.

    The Greek word is pornia where the English worn pornography comes from. It is translated as unlawful intercourse, adultery, Matthew 5:32, 1 Corinthians 5:1, Jude 1:7.
     
  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    No I don't, but it seems to me like you do. God is the boss. He decides. He made it clear in the Bible. People can read it any way they want, but they can't change it's meaning without deception.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, “the Bible is clear on the subject” in you humble opinion. So, according to you, “it doesn’t mean squat.”
     
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  5. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    There are spirits above - don't know that I would call any of them G-ds, but would like to call them brothers and sisters.
    We are all in the same universe, all feel the same life within us, and that life comes with certain natural laws.
    Anything that promotes love, unity, and kindness appears to bring peace and joy.
    Anything that judges, divides, isolates, promotes pride - there is no peace in this.

    At some point, it is not about what is written in any books, it is not about what some authority figure states or does not state.
    Put all that aside, and embrace what is real.

    May everyone trust their heart above all else.
    May everyone see others in kindness.
    May we all experience friendship and love to the fullest.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    There are a few things here that I don't seem to be getting clear.
    So maybe you can help me.

    Scenario

    The taste, smell, and sight of blood is a fetish/blood-lust for me, so I am not just satisfied if someone kills a goat and bring the fresh blood, and place before me. It's the height of ecstasy to experience thrusting my blade into flesh - over and over again, or using other tools to get the job done.
    I can't seem to help myself.

    Here is how blood-lust is defined
    noun: blood-lust
    uncontrollable desire to kill or maim others.

    Is the law okay with my preference? Is God, and Jesus okay with it?
    In answering, could you say what you are using to give me an answer for God and Jesus, and the law.

    This will help me figure out how you want us to work out, or get, or provide the answer, because right now I am not clear on that.:confused:
     
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  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the verses from the Bible. I would not have found them myself. I am a little shocked by what I read though. Did not know the Bible was so "sick". My God, I only read the nice stories when I was young. Probably even better. Good to know now. Good to know pos+neg parts from the Bible.

    Don't remember this story. So sick [glad God prevented me from reading such sick stuff]. The Bible really shows us how NOT to behave.
    Juda has 3 sons. Er(1st) marries Tamar. God kills Er. Juda tells Onan(2nd) to make Tamar a baby. Onan spills semen on ground. Juda promises Tamar to marry Sela(3rd). But does not keep his word. So Tamar seduces Juda[father in Law], dressed as prostitute. Juda has sex with Tamar (gives ring+). Finds out she is pregnant. Wants to kill her for adultery. Finds out he was the fornicator/adulterer. So she stays alive.

    My good Lord. How sick the people from the Bible were. One family, forefather of The King David. Fornication/Prostitute Experts I would say IMHO.

    But thanks, now I know in detail what fornication/adultery/prostitution in the Bible is. Or better this was forcing your "daughter in Law" to have sex with her 2 "brothers in Law" [so she did them all three]. And if not enough she also did her father in Law. Wow. That is so sick IMHO.
     
    #47 stvdv, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  8. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I can imagine you are a little confused;). I just read Genesis 38:24 story about Juda as explained in my previous reply. I am still a bit sick in my stomach about all the incest/prostitution/fornication and what not, all in one family "Juda" who is the forefather from what I always imagined respectable king David. This all described in our beloved Bible. So we know how not to do stuff I guess. What a disillusion of the Bible. Yak. I am so glad I only read the "clean" stories, maybe that is the reason that I could easily choose for a life without sex and masturbation. Reading the Bible give you plenty of sick ideas, when reading at young age will never be erased IMHO.

    So what were you asking?:D

    Oh yes, some clarification about my naughty POST:D:D. With a big kernel of truth in it.

    Listen very careful and you will understand what I meant. It is very simple actually, once you get the hang of it.

    1: You try to compare "Love between 2 gay people" with "Blood-lust to kill". How you think "Gay people will feel" with your comparison?
    2: This post had as aim. Trying to show that Bible verses is all about interpretation. My interpretation is okay "Freedom of Relgion"
    3: This was meant for Gay people. I do not do proselytizing. So I do not want Christians to change their views.
    4: You saw the Disclaimer I hope. Very clear. You should not have even read this post. Unless you want to debate. But then again "Freedom of Religion"

    I did have a nice conversation with our other Christian brother in which all was explained clearly.

    There has been just a little misunderstanding lately.
    RF rules, specific Rule 8 if I recall correct, states very clear that we should not state "our believe as a fact". That is why the RF rules specific instruct the members to use words like "IMHO" + "IMO"(for the less humble ones) + "I believe" + "I think" + "......"

    So if a Christian would state "In my humble opinion a man should not have sex with a man", then all people would rest in peace. I would not even have considered to start this POST. But to my great surprise some people state "man should not have sex with man". This is "not done".

    That was all what my post was about. As I stated I allowed my creativity to go wild on this free sunday to read and interpret some Bible verses, just to make gay people not feel guilty. Because they should not feel guilty.

    My guru has more strict rules then you have to follow I think: No sex, No masturbation, vegatarian, no alcohol etc.etc. But I do so because it feels good.
    BUT now the most important thing, I will not TELL you "Do this also" else masturbation makes you blind [Christian should know this; said so in the Bible]
    Why is this? Because I do not know if it is good for you to know. You might go insane, emotional unbalance and what not.

    But I also would not do this, because it is against the Law [the Law on RF]
     
    #48 stvdv, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    That is true, it is most of the time implicit in the replies. When one says "I think", "in my opinion" etc.. But also we easy forget. This was the first spiritual forum I am on. Members had to remind me also RF rules [read them 3 times I think] in the beginning. Then I saw one member who has in his "footer" in small letters "IMHO". I thought that is smart, just in case I forget. But I make now a habit to also put enough nice statements to not upset others. So they feel respected

    And the great thing is, that I become more open and sensitive myself. And this has good effect on my meditation [connection with the Divine inside]. I was brought up to not feel, be strong. Age 5 father said "man don't cry". That was the last time I cried. But now I try different approach. No wall to block emotions anymore, because for me it blocked also contact with God. So in the end being nice in words worked out better for myself too.

    Thank you for the interesting exchange of insights. Now I go and study the other Bible verses you gave me.
     
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  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Yeah, and the Christians protest too much sex and violence on TV and the movies. The Bible is full of sex and violence. King David himself had multiple wives and concubines and still sent Uriah the Hittite off to certain death so he could get at Uriah's wife. 2 Samuel 11:14-26

    It was a rule in the Bible, if a woman's husband died before they had a son then the dead husband's brother was obligated to have sex with her so she could have a son who would get part of the family inheritance. If she wanted to.
     
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  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yep, it was a sort of guarantee for the wife. A strange one from our perspective. And on a related note the "Sin of Onan" was not masturbation. It would be closer to being a "money shot", though he did not do that correctly either:rolleyes:
     
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    When I was writing my reply I got the thought "but it was the custom to do so in that time".
    This is at least a good example that we should use good discrimination which verses how to interpret. Now this might get you jailed.

    So even at that time people messed up a lot in their beds. No surprise this stuff still happens. Maybe good to talk openly about it. And we have 2000+ years of proof that when you make people feel guilty they do it anyway, only nobody sees it. And it did not change a bit. My own experience is, that when people tell me the truth, without implying I should do it, then I am pretty smart and pick it up sooner (not later). I have a neighbor who told me he is very stubborn. So if I need him to go right, I tell him he must go left. Works all the time.
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Well, now this is a quandary. We agree on something. His sin was not fulfilling his brother in law marriage obligation.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Not exactly a "sin", but yes he was going against the mores of the time. But if we give the myth the benefit of the doubt, yes that was a "sin". Back side, stomach or lower or even the face. Never on the ground.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't seem to address what I am asking. :)

    For example, you say
    If you are speaking of the Hindu's, you probably know how that was revealed to you.
    If you are speaking of the Bible's, I am a bit confused as to how that was revealed to you, because you seem to be saying the Bible reveals it.

    That's the confusing part to me.
    How is it that the Bible reveals all these things to you - Love your neighbor, etc., but yet it does not reveal what God says on homosexuality?
    For you say this:
    So I want to know how you know what God thinks on the matter. Do you use the Bible or your own thinking?

    As regards forum rules, as far as I understand, it is not saying, you must say imo. It gives examples, to help you not come over as though you know what is and what isn't, better than others do. It does not prevent one from saying, 'According to George W. Bush; According to what i read in the Times; According to what Jesus said at...; According to what the Bible says at...'

    If asks the question, 'What does Jesus say about xyz?' To answer that question with, 'Jesus said, ABC, imo.' is not called for. One is simple saying what Jesus said, and it would be good to provide a referrence, just as we provide a referrence to a quote by a user.
    That is an RF rule, as far as I understand. It makes it easier for a person to check the specific info .

    So if for example, or more specifically, one wanted to know what God's view is on Gays.
    His view is outlined in numerous verses.
    They can be found here: Leviticus 18:22; Romans 8:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 timothy 1:8-11; Ephesians 4:20-24

    According to those verses, it is evident that God does not consider homosexuality a righteous, clean, or natural activity, and he clearly outlines that they don't have his approval.
    The fact that this is God's view, and it is taught by the apostles of Christ, in God's word, indicates that this is Jesus view.

    However, the verses also show that God is willing to forgive those who change thier course, and thinking.
    He said they can be washed clean. He also said they can have a different mental attitude - the mind of Christ.
    That's not in my opinion. How can it be my opinion?

    With regard to why you did not address my scenario, this is my opinion - what I think.
    If I were asked that question, and I said it was wrong - which it is, according to the law, and the Bible (the law is not going to say it is right - even if the puts that person in a mental asylum), I would be obligated to judge the act of homosexuality in the same light - depending on what law I use. whether the law of the land, or the law of God.

    In both cases, the persons are considered, "unable to help themselves".:( In both cases, they are doing what is wrong, according to the law of most nations, and according to God's law.
    So, honestly, i might feel like a hypocrite taking one side over the other. This is how I feel.

    What do you think about how I feel?
     
    #55 nPeace, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Here is a typical example of what forum rules try to discourage.
    They don't say, I disagree because... or that doesn't appear to be correct... They come out in this aggressive, 'I am better than you. I know better than you' confrontational manner, which doesn't lead to any civil discussion as RF is encouraging.
     
    #56 nPeace, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  17. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I had the feeling you were NotSeeing the essence of my POST, so your scenario I did not understand [within my context]:

    The essence of my POST: Bible verses are personal. You can't state "The fact is that fornication is a sin". You can say "I believe fornication is a sin". You can say "The Bible says fornication is a sin". But if the other has another verse and claims the opposite, then you just have to respect his "Freedom of Religion". You can't say "God says fornication is a sin". Because then you belittle the faith of the other. You can say "I believe that God says fornication is a sin". Hope this makes it clear.

    Unconditional Love:
    I read different scriptures, also the Bible and met my Guru and other Masters. They all taught me "God loves Unconditionally". So this is my belief.
    I do understand that others read the Bible different and see it different. That's why it is belief. Not fact. I accept that. Don't try convince others.

    RF-rules:
    We should not imply that others' Religion/Atheism/Humanism are inferior. So we can't state:"Jesus is the only way for all". That is "not done". Then you fail "Freedom of Religion". Just use the words "I believe", and then all are happy. You don't want on purpose hurt others, do you? Freedom of Religion does not mean "Freedom to belittle someone else's religion" IMHO. Do unto others. You don't want others to belittle Jesus/Bible/God either. So we should set correct example ourselves.

    You can quote Bible verses on gay. But beware when interpreting them. Better be wise and say "I believe the interpretation of this verse is that fornication is wrong". But do not say "This is the truth". Accept that the other believes different. Do not belittle his interpretation.

    The fact that this is God's view [about homo], and it is taught by the apostles of Christ, in God's word, indicates that this is Jesus view.
    I would suggest to delete the interpretation parts [or add that this is your interpretation]:
    "The fact that this is God's view"
    "this is Jesus view"

    There are other scriptures saying different things. So you cannot say "The fact that this is God's view", thereby belittling the other scriptures.

    Why do Christians feel the need to say "The fact that this is God's view". I think because it sounds as a strong argument. I mean if God backs you up, you can't loose. But all religions make similar claims about God. So who is right? Right, that's it, it's a believe. No one is right. Freedom of Religion.

    Your scenario:
    I just follow the Law of the country. Scriptures I follow for advices on good conduct and my spiritual life:
    A murderer: Obviously the act is judged as wrong. I don't judge the person.
    A gay: If he hurts none, then I do not judge the act. I don't judge the person.
    I need not judge a gay [unless I am a judge]. But there are verses telling not to be in the company of gay Christians I read today. If you believe the Bible and this verse, then just do it. Advice of the saints "Never study more than you can put in practice". That is very wise advice. Don't read the whole Bible, unless you are sure you can put in practice. Else you are continuously worrying, how should I do this. Now I can't speak to gay, should I tell them etc.etc. Now you understand why I never read scriptures anymore;). I better first practice all that I read so far.
     
    #57 stvdv, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    One is judged by the scriptures, if one wants to get the scriptural view. Most people who ask questions related to God, want to know what the Bible really is saying on a matter.

    True, sometimes they don't like the answer, but if they prefer something that sounds more appealing to them, they do what Paul said. 2 Timothy 4:3
    If however, they don't like that they are not meeting the requirements the answer gives, but they value the answer - which many do (from my experience - another area where it is not appropriate to say imo, because it's my personal experience) - they try to find out how they can be helped to adjust their view, and their lifestyle, because factually, some are not happy with their lifestyle.
    They may actually be feeling trapped, and looking for help where they feel that help can be found - in the Bible.

    In other words, they are not looking for human opinion - some of which they know is only given to keep them in a position where they are no different to those giving the advice.
    It's like the situation with drinking buddies (this is just one example of many)
    When one tries to change his life, the other tries to discourage him. Not because they really care about him, but because they want to have someone drowning in alcohol with them, so they don't have that person condemn them - not by words - but by the fact that they were able to break the habit, and clean up their life.
    So the person feels judged - even if no one judged him.

    We can all attest to this, and I am confident that some here have been through this.
    This has been my experience.
     
  19. dust1n

    dust1n Zindīq

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    Okay, in this scenario, let's just God decides his son doesn't like homosexuals. Someone comes a long, reads the book, and is like.. "I think God has no problem with homosexuals."

    How exactly how your religious freedom been taken away from you?
     
  20. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    It's such a simple question and yet such a complex answer. It's easy for me to give you a parallel example.

    Forget God, and instead lets say you make a post on the garden forum here. You say you hate cucumbers. You make it clear quite simply that you hate cucumbers. Then someone else comes along and says, oh, so, you like cucumbers. That isn't interpretation that's misrepresentation.

    Homosexuality has, only recently in the U.S. gained some support. When I was born you could be arrested for being gay, associating with gays or being in a place where gays were known to hang out. Literally put in a patty wagon, taken to jail, charged, had your name put in the paper, loose all of your friends and family and your job.

    But in Jesus' and Moses' day homosexuality was far more accepted and practiced. Young boys were used as homosexual prostitutes, catamites, temple whores . . . the Olympics were basically homosexual pedophile orgies.

    Now people in Western cultures tend to think Christianity should allow, even embrace homosexuality. It isn't just that they want to deceive themselves into thinking it's ok to be Christian and gay, they want Christianity to embrace homosexuality and say it was ok with Jesus, and it wasn't.
     
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